Jazz Articulation

[kofblz]

Hello all. As a new member here I want to thank everyone for all the great information and good advice.

I have a question about getting that jazzy feel. As a long time bluegrass and fiddle tune player I tend to play right on the beat. Playing more legato and dragging the beat is hard to do. Old habits are hard to break.

Any suggestions for simple exercises to build new habits? Players to listen to? Metronome ideas?

Thanks again. Wonderful site.

[fumblefingers]

yes,

Lennie Niehaus jazz conception for saxophone, volume 1, for starters.

[JakeAcci]

Here's a suggestion: Take a solo or performance of a head you like, learn a segment of it (however much you think is manageable, could be 8 bars could be a few choruses.) Try to play along with the recording to match the feel - record yourself playing along with the recording and watch for discrepancies. Note the parts where you are ahead of the recording, keep adjusting yourself until the playback sounds lined up.

Then repeat with another head...

I should do this more...

[kofblz]

Here's a suggestion: Take a solo or performance of a head you like, learn a segment of it (however much you think is manageable, could be 8 bars could be a few choruses.) Try to play along with the recording to match the feel - record yourself playing along with the recording and watch for discrepancies. Note the parts where you are ahead of the recording, keep adjusting yourself until the playback sounds lined up.

Then repeat with another head...

I should do this more...

Thanks Jake and Fumblefingers. Yes, Jake. That's mainly what I've been doing and I generally don't have problems with a memorized phrase. It's when I start winging it that the old habits show themselves. Now, I'm trying to play 8th notes in short-long, accenting the off beat, but it's an unnatural groove to stay in for longer than a few beats.

[JakeAcci]

I think it's just time doing it, and an issue of concentration.

If you can record yourself playing along with a phrase and you find that you're matching the time perfectly, then that means you understand what you need to do on the instrument to get the time feel right. You just apply that same relaxation and groove to your improvised phrases.

Recording yourself playing along with the original recording is really key here, it's a step often skipped (by myself as well)

For applying it to improvisation I think, like anything, you might have to just play simpler improvisations to allow yourself to focus more on the rhythmic aspect. For example, playing over a blues with just one note.

It does just take time - a lot of listening, playing along, playing with other good musicians who are familiar with the style

[mr. beaumont]

I agree with all the advice you've been given here...

Just to add/pile on two things...

1. I find listening to vocalists makes phrasing easier to pick up on...now there's actual "words" to latch on to, not just sounds.

2. Listening is so crucial...I've said it a lot of times, but I'll say it again, because I beleive it's one of the few things I know about jazz that are absolutely true: You will never be able to play jazz until it is the music that "plays inside your head." And the only real way to get that to happen is to listen as much as humanly possible.

[Reg]

Yea... all great advice...

For me personally... You need to learn how to feel playing behind and in front of the beat. Jazz doesn't really use constant feel or phrasing anymore. I play bluegrass, rockabilly gigs etc... very steady feel, like you obviously know and can feel. The difficulty with jazz phrasing, at least the last 20 years, the feels change, Where your playing on or off the beat, changes... and that becomes the feel. It's like another level of notation....A pattern of where your playing on and off the beat.

Think of an accent pattern or groove with consistent attack rate, or on the beat. Now take that concept and apply to where off the beat your playing.

Example could be, play a pattern of being behind the beat for a bar and then ahead of the beat for the next bar, and mix with your already good feel with on the beat playing. You'll begin to hear and feel the difference. Which will lead to your understanding of the differences.

Just like you can lock with on the beat grooves or feels... jazz locks with combinations of on and off the beat grooves.
Part of playing jazz is that ability to freely use those feels and be able to interact with live accent patterns. When we try and notate or articulate the feel.... it never really covers, sounds very straight.

Hell, most have trouble locking with consistent pulse... So if you have good feel or on the beat feels... should not take to long to develop.
Reg

[kofblz]

I agree with all the advice you've been given here...

Just to add/pile on two things...

1. I find listening to vocalists makes phrasing easier to pick up on...now there's actual "words" to latch on to, not just sounds.

2. Listening is so crucial...I've said it a lot of times, but I'll say it again, because I beleive it's one of the few things I know about jazz that are absolutely true: You will never be able to play jazz until it is the music that "plays inside your head." And the only real way to get that to happen is to listen as much as humanly possible.

Thx Jake and Jeff, I agree that time in this new style is what I mostly need. It's a little frustrating because the change I'm trying to make is so small. I've been play AT jazz and swing for a while, mostly with bluegrass players who aren't afraid to tackle some Django or western swing, and had no idea there would be this issue of basic timing. Most of these tunes are rather fast and not completely in the jazz idiom. I think I need to listen to more ballads, which I love, so no problem there.

Here are a couple of guys who play both styles well....I think.

[kofblz]

Yea... all great advice...

For me personally... You need to learn how to feel playing behind and in front of the beat. Jazz doesn't really use constant feel or phrasing anymore. I play bluegrass, rockabilly gigs etc... very steady feel, like you obviously know and can feel. The difficulty with jazz phrasing, at least the last 20 years, the feels change, Where your playing on or off the beat, changes... and that becomes the feel. It's like another level of notation....A pattern of where your playing on and off the beat.

Think of an accent pattern or groove with consistent attack rate, or on the beat. Now take that concept and apply to where off the beat your playing.

Example could be, play a pattern of being behind the beat for a bar and then ahead of the beat for the next bar, and mix with your already good feel with on the beat playing. You'll begin to hear and feel the difference. Which will lead to your understanding of the differences.

Just like you can lock with on the beat grooves or feels... jazz locks with combinations of on and off the beat grooves.
Part of playing jazz is that ability to freely use those feels and be able to interact with live accent patterns. When we try and notate or articulate the feel.... it never really covers, sounds very straight.

Hell, most have trouble locking with consistent pulse... So if you have good feel or on the beat feels... should not take to long to develop.
Reg

Thx Reg. I guess if you can play on or a little in front of the beat, you should be able to eventually play a little behind it. Clarence White was a bluegrass guy who everyone says played a little behind the beat and I've tried to do it for years. Not easy. I can do it for a bar or two but it's so much easier to get out there in front and let the beat push you along.

[Reg]

Hey Kofblz...Yea... somewhat depends on how you approach being able to do. The somewhat traditional listen, transcribe... trial and error method... can take years. And may not even happen.

What may happen, you listen and try and copy using whatever technique and organizational method of learning... you may or may not understand... trying to copy what you hear. Use to be at tempo, but many use slowdown programs nowadays. So you almost learn to play and hear at slow speed. Getting to the point... Almost any technique will work at slower speeds... but many of those techniques hit walls or don't work when used at faster tempos. There are differences between being able to play some things fast and anything fast. Not that being able to play fast is the goal. But faster tempos expose bad technique.
You can hear and feel those problems at slower tempos also, their just not as obvious.
Yea Clarence White has cool feel for his style.
The video you posted was great example of getting behind beat without slowing down... typical problem with most players. Was almost a New Orleans second line feel... nice. Reg

[TSP]

Any suggestions for simple exercises to build new habits? Players to listen to? Metronome ideas?

Listen to Kenny Burrell, a lot.He is master of relaxed feel and time both in accompanyment and soloing.

[pingu]

Listen to
concert by the sea by erroll garner
Teach me tonight is a good example

Huge big behind the beat stuff ......... massive .... huge
and delicate too , superb
also listen to Billy Holiday with Lester Young

I don't hear much ahead of the beat playing these days
Mclaughlin ? or maybe check out Charlie Christian for that ?

Its good to sing along with the recordings too
Oh yeah Basie sooooo great lazy behind stuff
and then the stride stuff pushing the beat ......
crazy daddyo

Yeah mix it up as Reg says

[kamlapati]

Lot's of great advice here. It may be obvious to all, but I'll say it anyway:

When I listened to lots of non-jazz, my jazz feel was never very good. Once I converted my commute to "all jazz all the time" my swing feel got a lot better. My car is stocked with Ella, Frank, Tony Bennett, Hall, Pass, Johnny Smith, Burrell, Coltrane, and others.

[dasein]

Something to consider...

Lennie Tristano would have his students learn the solos from a select group of jazz artists. They would first have to be able to sing the solo before they learned it on their instrument.

The artists were: Lester Young, Charlie Christian, Billie Holiday, Louis Armstrong, Roy Eldridge, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Fats Navarro.

What I did was take a bunch of solid performances from these artists and edited the tracks so that only their solos remained. Then I put them on my iPod, set it on loop, and listened to it constantly throughout the day... when I'm cooking, when I'm driving, when I'm exercising, etc.

I would especially recommend early Lester Young: his work with the Basie band, his work with Billie Holiday, and especially that small group session he did which yielded "Lady Be Good" and "Shoe Shine Boy." There's just something about Prez, the way he so perfectly phrases his lines, the way he makes it sound so relaxed and effortless and dare I say cool, that makes him prime study material.

Charlie Christian is easy... just get all the cuts from "The Genius of Electric Guitar." Bird is also pretty easy, there are countless compilations that have all his studio classics. Roy Eldridge is a little harder to find... there's a compilation called "Uptown" with Gene Krupa and Anita O'Day. A lot of it is pretty hokey stuff, to be honest, but Eldridge's playing is sublime. And you can get just about all of Fats Navarro's studio performances in a compilation with Tedd Dameron, which is nothing but terrific music.

I never gave Louis Armstrong the same treatment... shame on me. I'm sure his Hot Fives and Sevens material would be excellent, but he would be much harder to follow than Lester Young. Satchmo's time feel was from another planet.

Take a bunch of these tracks, edit them so they're just the solos and just listen to them all the time... seriously, all the time. You'll get a lot out of it. You will not only learn swing feel, but all these subtle things like where to start and end lines, proper syncopation, all this stuff that only comes from listening to a ton of jazz. And if you ever do decide to learn any of these solos on guitar, it'll be much easier because you know them so well you can practically sing them first thing in the morning.

This is all in the same spirit as "listen to a lot of jazz." It's just a very concentrated approach.

[kofblz]

Something to consider...

Lennie Tristano would have his students learn the solos from a select group of jazz artists. They would first have to be able to sing the solo before they learned it on their instrument.

The artists were: Lester Young, Charlie Christian, Billie Holiday, Louis Armstrong, Roy Eldridge, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Fats Navarro.

What I did was take a bunch of solid performances from these artists and edited the tracks so that only their solos remained. Then I put them on my iPod, set it on loop, and listened to it constantly throughout the day... when I'm cooking, when I'm driving, when I'm exercising, etc.

I would especially recommend early Lester Young: his work with the Basie band, his work with Billie Holiday, and especially that small group session he did which yielded "Lady Be Good" and "Shoe Shine Boy." There's just something about Prez, the way he so perfectly phrases his lines, the way he makes it sound so relaxed and effortless and dare I say cool, that makes him prime study material.

Charlie Christian is easy... just get all the cuts from "The Genius of Electric Guitar." Bird is also pretty easy, there are countless compilations that have all his studio classics. Roy Eldridge is a little harder to find... there's a compilation called "Uptown" with Gene Krupa and Anita O'Day. A lot of it is pretty hokey stuff, to be honest, but Eldridge's playing is sublime. And you can get just about all of Fats Navarro's studio performances in a compilation with Tedd Dameron, which is nothing but terrific music.

I never gave Louis Armstrong the same treatment... shame on me. I'm sure his Hot Fives and Sevens material would be excellent, but he would be much harder to follow than Lester Young. Satchmo's time feel was from another planet.

Take a bunch of these tracks, edit them so they're just the solos and just listen to them all the time... seriously, all the time. You'll get a lot out of it. You will not only learn swing feel, but all these subtle things like where to start and end lines, proper syncopation, all this stuff that only comes from listening to a ton of jazz. And if you ever do decide to learn any of these solos on guitar, it'll be much easier because you know them so well you can practically sing them first thing in the morning.

This is all in the same spirit as "listen to a lot of jazz." It's just a very concentrated approach.

Thank you for finally deciding to post. Great idea and I plan to get right on it. Perhaps youtube will have some of those artists you mentioned.

[JakeAcci]

Something to consider...

Lennie Tristano would have his students learn the solos from a select group of jazz artists. They would first have to be able to sing the solo before they learned it on their instrument.

The artists were: Lester Young, Charlie Christian, Billie Holiday, Louis Armstrong, Roy Eldridge, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Fats Navarro.

What I did was take a bunch of solid performances from these artists and edited the tracks so that only their solos remained. Then I put them on my iPod, set it on loop, and listened to it constantly throughout the day... when I'm cooking, when I'm driving, when I'm exercising, etc.

I would especially recommend early Lester Young: his work with the Basie band, his work with Billie Holiday, and especially that small group session he did which yielded "Lady Be Good" and "Shoe Shine Boy." There's just something about Prez, the way he so perfectly phrases his lines, the way he makes it sound so relaxed and effortless and dare I say cool, that makes him prime study material.

Charlie Christian is easy... just get all the cuts from "The Genius of Electric Guitar." Bird is also pretty easy, there are countless compilations that have all his studio classics. Roy Eldridge is a little harder to find... there's a compilation called "Uptown" with Gene Krupa and Anita O'Day. A lot of it is pretty hokey stuff, to be honest, but Eldridge's playing is sublime. And you can get just about all of Fats Navarro's studio performances in a compilation with Tedd Dameron, which is nothing but terrific music.

I never gave Louis Armstrong the same treatment... shame on me. I'm sure his Hot Fives and Sevens material would be excellent, but he would be much harder to follow than Lester Young. Satchmo's time feel was from another planet.

Take a bunch of these tracks, edit them so they're just the solos and just listen to them all the time... seriously, all the time. You'll get a lot out of it. You will not only learn swing feel, but all these subtle things like where to start and end lines, proper syncopation, all this stuff that only comes from listening to a ton of jazz. And if you ever do decide to learn any of these solos on guitar, it'll be much easier because you know them so well you can practically sing them first thing in the morning.

This is all in the same spirit as "listen to a lot of jazz." It's just a very concentrated approach.

Great first post, Dasein, thank you for contributing. Where did you learn that about Lennie Tristano? He's one of my favorites, always interested in his approaches to things.

[bako]

Dasein,

Welcome.
I took some lessons a few years back with Connie Crothers, an amazing pianist/musician who was a close associate of Lennie Tristano.
She did a pre-lesson interview, getting to know me a bit, outlining her approach to teaching and told me that there was one thing that she absolutely insisted upon for all her students.
I was expecting her to tell me about her payment policy, but it was that I would be willing to sing the solos of master improvisors.
It is a great way to absorb all the nuance of jazz style and history.
Thanks for the reminder, I'll have to break out some Lester later today for starters.

[wizard3739]

Something to consider...

Lennie Tristano would have his students learn the solos from a select group of jazz artists. They would first have to be able to sing the solo before they learned it on their instrument.

The artists were: Lester Young, Charlie Christian, Billie Holiday, Louis Armstrong, Roy Eldridge, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Fats Navarro.

What I did was take a bunch of solid performances from these artists and edited the tracks so that only their solos remained. Then I put them on my iPod, set it on loop, and listened to it constantly throughout the day... when I'm cooking, when I'm driving, when I'm exercising, etc.

I would especially recommend early Lester Young: his work with the Basie band, his work with Billie Holiday, and especially that small group session he did which yielded "Lady Be Good" and "Shoe Shine Boy." There's just something about Prez, the way he so perfectly phrases his lines, the way he makes it sound so relaxed and effortless and dare I say cool, that makes him prime study material.

Charlie Christian is easy... just get all the cuts from "The Genius of Electric Guitar." Bird is also pretty easy, there are countless compilations that have all his studio classics. Roy Eldridge is a little harder to find... there's a compilation called "Uptown" with Gene Krupa and Anita O'Day. A lot of it is pretty hokey stuff, to be honest, but Eldridge's playing is sublime. And you can get just about all of Fats Navarro's studio performances in a compilation with Tedd Dameron, which is nothing but terrific music.

I never gave Louis Armstrong the same treatment... shame on me. I'm sure his Hot Fives and Sevens material would be excellent, but he would be much harder to follow than Lester Young. Satchmo's time feel was from another planet.

Take a bunch of these tracks, edit them so they're just the solos and just listen to them all the time... seriously, all the time. You'll get a lot out of it. You will not only learn swing feel, but all these subtle things like where to start and end lines, proper syncopation, all this stuff that only comes from listening to a ton of jazz. And if you ever do decide to learn any of these solos on guitar, it'll be much easier because you know them so well you can practically sing them first thing in the morning.

This is all in the same spirit as "listen to a lot of jazz." It's just a very concentrated approach.

This is a great message for ear training and and other very important jazz learning concepts. I recall a time when I slowed some of Charlie Parkers improv lines and to my surprise, they sounded a lot like Lester Youngs' lines. As a result, I started transcribing some of Prezs' improvisation as a study of good jazz lines.

wiz

[dasein]

Great first post, Dasein, thank you for contributing. Where did you learn that about Lennie Tristano? He's one of my favorites, always interested in his approaches to things.

I got this info from the book "Lennie Tristano: His Life in Music" by Eunmi Shim. It has quite a bit of info on his pedagogy and teaching methods.

It's a method that many of his former students use, including...

Dasein,

Welcome.
I took some lessons a few years back with Connie Crothers, an amazing pianist/musician who was a close associate of Lennie Tristano.
She did a pre-lesson interview, getting to know me a bit, outlining her approach to teaching and told me that there was one thing that she absolutely insisted upon for all her students.
I was expecting her to tell me about her payment policy, but it was that I would be willing to sing the solos of master improvisors.
It is a great way to absorb all the nuance of jazz style and history.
Thanks for the reminder, I'll have to break out some Lester later today for starters.

Someday, I think I will take some lessons from Crothers, but for now I'll have to settle for my own approximation.

I've got about 100 solos on my playlist. Sounds like a lot, but the whole thing is about an hour straight through. I still listen to them constantly, and have learned to play quite a few on guitar. The Charlie Christian solos are all very guitar friendly, for obvious reasons. Once you learn a half dozen of his solos, you learn most of his favorite positions and you can start to anticipate what he's going to do next.

[dasein]

This is a great message for ear training and and other very important jazz learning concepts. I recall a time when I slowed some of Charlie Parkers improv lines and to my surprise, they sounded a lot like Lester Youngs' lines. As a result, I started transcribing some of Prezs' improvisation as a study of good jazz lines.

wiz

This is something that I had to learn the hard way when I was younger.

A lot of times, younger guys try to jump into the deep end right away... trying to sound like Coltrane, or Rosenwinkel, or Mehldau right off the bat. And maybe if they're really talented they can pull it off, but most of the time it just sounds like a big mess. They simply don't have the ears, the rhythmic knowledge, or the language to pull off something that complex.

On the other hand, if you start with out with learning a bunch of Lester Young, then suddenly Charlie Parker makes a lot more sense and becomes much easier to hear. And then in turn if you learn a bunch of Charlie Parker, suddenly Bud Powell and Fats Navarro make a lot more sense.

Now when you go to learn Coltrane, it's not just a blur of notes, you can hear the logic and architecture of his lines.

Besides, who doesn't want to have a little bit of Lester Young in their playing? In his early days, before his army stint and the ensuing psychological problems, he was the best improvisor in jazz... never played a misplaced note and made it all seem easy while doing it.

[kamlapati]

On the other hand, if you start with out with learning a bunch of Lester Young

What are favorite or recommended albums?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

A little more mandolin music... I hope this isn't completely off-topic, but an instrument itself is never limiting; you can try to play any type of music on any instrument, if you feel it.

[markf]

great suggestions through here. thanks.

[dasein]

What are favorite or recommended albums?

Early stuff... there's nothing wrong with the later, post-war material, but it's the earlier stuff that Charlie Parker, Miles, Coltrane, Tristano etc. would have studied.

You're going to have to do some detective work, since there really isn't a one-stop compilation to get all his early stuff...it's mostly stuff he did either with Count Basie or Billie Holiday. The Ken Burns Jazz compilation on Young actually looks pretty good, but according to reviews the sound quality is terrible.

A while back, Ethan Iverson did a feature on his blog where he posted a bunch of early Prez solos. That would be a good way to get a whole bunch of them.

[thiezn]

Hi Kofblz,

I've got difficulties getting that jazz swing feel down as well and came across an excellent vid on youtube that helped me getting a bit closer to the sound:

Cheers,
Thiezn