About Rhythm

[elixzer]

In another thread someone said:

When I was young and taking piano lessons virtually all the teachers denigrated strict attention to rhythm - "just play it as you feel it and don't worry about following a metronome." And sure enough, I have a rather poor sense of time. I just realized that quite recently and I'm going to try to remedy it. I'm looking for a drum teacher who will have the patience to help me "get my groove back," not that I ever had it to begin with!

This really inspired this thread because I have been wanting to explore about rhythm.
I am VERY surprised what he says, because I am fresh from my first ever lesson with a guitar teacher, and he straightaway came on strong about paying attention to how rhythm is written after I played him a nervous rendition of a simple chord progression of The Shadow of Your Smile. I have also noticed how nearly every guitar teacher I have seen on youtube vids emphasize metronomes. So to hear of other teachers encouraging NOT to do that is surprising to me.
But he also stresses that that advice didn't do him any good and as far as I dig he wants that discipline.

Now I know it is easy to be cocky if your a novice, and think you know it all, but the way I feel is this: I love dancing also, and singing and I feel I have natural rhythm. So I find it constrcting when someone insists I look at notes on a piece of paper telling me to wait two beats or a quarter of a beat, etc, because I feel this should come from the soul. I also do not intend to play with a band, so there is no pressure to HAVE to read music so I am not 'off time'.

But ALSO, take the song The Shadow of Your Smile, or ANY song...WHO says I HAVE to do it the rhythm it says on a sheet? The visions I have for this song when I get more confident is gonna be as flexible as ever. It may kind of get a steady beat and then really slow up, and stay a while on some vibration. IE it is all about feeling, and I could play the song different tempos every time. Why not? Is there a law says I cannot do this? What are your thoughts.

[JakeAcci]

If you're playing with a band and can't keep time you're going to have experiences where your band mates want to beat the shit out of you.

Since you won't be playing with a band at any point in your life, you just might have an audience that wants to beat the shit out of you.

If you're not going to be playing for an audience, then I suppose you can do whatever satisfies you.

This is all advice given with good humor, keep in mind

So I find it constrcting when someone insists I look at notes on a piece of paper telling me to wait two beats or a quarter of a beat, etc, because I feel this should come from the soul

Doing anything you can't yet do is generally a restriction and therefore feels like one. Honestly this just sounds pretty lazy to me, but hey, follow your vision. You just might find at some point that if you want to start actually playing in good time you'll have some difficulties. Also keep in mind a listener generally expects "music" to have melody, harmony and rhythm. To play without a firm sense of rhythm is digging yourself into a pretty specific hole that you might not want to be in.

Now, not all music is in metronomic time. Sometimes things are in "free time" (rubato,) where rhythms aren't about strict divisions of units of time, but rather a general pacing that suits the music and mood. Of jazz records, there is plenty of this rubato music, but it probably consists of a very small percentage of all the music ever recorded. Within the "free jazz" genre there is a lot of music that fits this description but usually the musicians that are playing without a strict sense of time are generally very rhythmically accomplished and capable of reading rhythms and playing in strict time. I think the ability to play in time generally makes rubato performances much stronger. That's typically the logic that accompanies music education and practice anyway - know the rules to break them - but I'll be completely open to examples of beautiful music that defy that principle.

As for it coming from the "soul", I think we all can make decisions about how technical we want to get in our musical journey. But if you took the "play from the soul" logic you're using to a further conclusion, you might argue that you shouldn't learn note names, think about picking technique, understand scale construction, etc, because playing should just be from the "soul" and not restricted by technical, cerebral thinking. Assuming your goal is to be a good jazz guitarist, that perspective could only get you so far unless if you are some sort of creative genius.

Playing in time is a fundamental skill. It seems like an exciting creative challenge to avoid it, maybe in the same vein of always intentionally playing out of tune, or only playing in one key, or only knowing 3 chords or something. If you want to learn how to be a good musician in a general sense of those terms, you can't avoid knowing how to keep time.

But ALSO, take the song The Shadow of Your Smile, or ANY song...WHO says I HAVE to do it the rhythm it says on a sheet?

Actually, not only do you not have to, but you probably shouldn't. These old standards, the tradition is to interpret them how you see fit. I definitely believe in putting a personal spin on playing the melodies. However, it's probably intensely difficult to, with conviction, put a personal spin on the rhythm of the melody if you don't know what the original melody is.

Generally jazz musicians interpret the melody loosely - by CHOICE, not because it's their only option. Any jazz musician you see on a stage can read the melody and the rhythm of it accurately even if they choose not to perform it as written.

The visions I have for this song when I get more confident is gonna be as flexible as ever. It may kind of get a steady beat and then really slow up, and stay a while on some vibration. IE it is all about feeling, and I could play the song different tempos every time. Why not? Is there a law says I cannot do this? What are your thoughts.

Compositions and presentations of a composition can have whatever rhythmic feel or changes you want. Most solo guitar arrangements mix rhythmic feels. But in order to have that variety, one of the skills you have to have is the ability to play in time. Just because you learn how to play with a metronome doesn't mean that you can't, in an arrangement, intentionally slow down or speed up or pause, etc. But if you want one of those sections to have a steady beat then...obviously...you need to be able to play with a steady beat.

Big picture, you bring up some interesting issues about learning how to play rhythm and how to play music, but being practical: learn how to read rhythms and play with a metronome and the odds are slim that you'll regret it. Unless if you have a vision of essentially being a bad musician and hoping that your "spirit" or creativity carries your performances beyond your lack of skill, I'd say it's absolutely essentially to be able to, at minimum, play in time when called upon to do so. If you learn this skill and then choose not to use it, fine, but I strongly believe you'll be shooting yourself in the foot if you don't develop the ability to keep time, read rhythms, understand beat lengths, etc.

Another practical perspective to throw out: name some of your favorite albums and recordings. I bet you that, unless if you listen exclusively to avant garde music and free jazz, most of that stuff is in time, performed by musicians who knew how to read rhythms and keep time with a metronome if they needed to.

[elixzer]

You say some very interesting things there I respect. You ask me about music I listen to, and dont I demand rhythmic structures. Well that is just it, of course. But I cant really put a finger on what that means. I for example could listen to a singer who has the timing off to a T, and yet something is missing. A lot of modern singers leave me cold---Beyonce is an example. Many sound the same to me, and I just know they will be going over time to be hip and doin flips, n shit.

Now, when I listen to a Delta Blues player, you notice that they often will not wait for the verse space that even later Blues singers, and players do, but spontaneously do stuff instinctively that IF say a strict temp type had got them woulda shamed them out of doing that. Would have said 'ohhh no, you mustn't come in yet, that is five beats to the bar' etc.

When I sing for example, often I sing unaccompanied, and have played guitar, and I have recorded quite a bit of me doing certain stuff, and it has natural rhythm so could not that translate to my music? Why all of a sudden would i HAVE to learn rhythm from a sheet of paper.

Not everyone can dance. I feel I can. So again I just feel I have an innnate sense. But .....I dont know I am just asking questions and exploring this question. But of course you are aright about playing with others you would need to know how to fit in with the changes of tempo
I can understand what you said about using this as an excuse NOT to learn stuff lol

[JakeAcci]

You ask me about music I listen to, and dont I demand rhythmic structures.

Could you name some specific jazz records and artists that you like?

You're right that some blues is not strict with the time at all. But with jazz this is much less true, of course it does vary from artist to artist. So I'm curious who you listen to and maybe are trying to emulate.

When I sing for example, often I sing unaccompanied, and I have recorded quite a bit of me doing certain stuff, and it has natural rhythm so could not that translate to my music? Why all of a sudden would i HAVE to learn rhythm from a sheet of paper.

Well, using that logic, answer me: why would you have to learn notes from a sheet of paper? Couldn't you just play the notes that 'felt' right? Why learn the chords, couldn't you just put your fingers somewhere that 'felt' right to you? Isn't that more natural than learn that the song goes G, A, Bb, etc? Why do anything technically? Try to answer these and I think you might find the answers to your question.

Also, you've used the term "natural rhythm" a few times. Learning how to read rhythms isn't trying to suffocate any intuitive rhythmic abilities. The whole point is just to be able to play something that somebody else played or that somebody wants you to play. A little OT, but I've actually seen this a lot - students that can hold a beat and sound good, but they only have a vocabulary of a small handful of different rhythms. When you demonstrate, either by ear or on paper, a rhythm they haven't played before, they are flabbergasted and can't do it.

Similarly, though some might disagree, I don't think a metronome is unnatural. I think it's "natural" for a song to stay at generally a steady tempo. Sure human beings rush and drag, but from measure to measure, the beat is generally pretty consistent in all genres of music whether the musicians are trained or not. For somebody like you, the metronome is just a way to help you stay consistent with rhythm, to have a framework of consistency to work with.

Honestly, something that happens a lot with beginners is they just can't get to the chord in time because their motor skills and muscle memory haven't developed yet. The metronome is a bullshit test - you truly know what you're playing if you can do it in time. You might think it's more "natural" to pace a song how you "feel" but for you, as a beginner, what you might actually be talking about is just taking as much time as you want to switch chords or get to the next note, because you haven't developed your technique well enough to actual play the piece at the pace you actually want to play it. Yes, the metronome will rush you and crowd you if you haven't developed your technique enough.

I give guitar lessons to some very young children and I see this problem all the time. I will teach them a melody like "Twinkle Twinkle" and once they have it memorized they may play it at an excruciatingly slow tempo. When I discuss this with them they generally are not aware of how slow they are playing the piece. They think they are playing it quickly because for them, they are using their brain and moving their fingers as fast as possible. But in reality, to the listener, there's far too much time in between notes. I know you aren't a small child, but I think there's an analogy here. You might "feel" the rhythms you are using are right or sound good, but it might just be that your technique isn't developed enough to play with a steady beat, so attempting to do so feels stressful and "unnatural." Just means more practice! Of course, I'm just speculating, as I haven't heard you play.

[ten left thumbs]

Honestly, something that happens a lot with beginners is they just can't get to the chord in time because their motor skills and muscle memory haven't developed yet. The metronome is a bullshit test - you truly know what you're playing if you can do it in time.

+1

But there's more. If you hear something wrong, and hear it enough times, you believe it's right. It sounds right to you. If you play something wrong enough times, you hear it wrong, but you believe it to be right.

Mistakes people make: rushing through a long note that needs to be held. Not feeling space (i.e. not respecting the other musician's time). The bar line linger. Slowing down at a tricky bit. Playing 3/4 as 4/4 (this is a variation on the bar line linger). Speeding up *before* quavers. Slow and gradual speeding up.

If you imagine two types of mistakes: playing wrong notes, or playing right notes but with wrong rhythm. Now, anyone can notice, oh dear, I played a G there when I was supposed to play an A. Silly me, I must try to play an A next time. But if anyone does the bar line linger, they are unlikely to notice, or even to believe if someone else points it out.

[monk]

Everything Jake has said here is dead on the money. He's made made some very valid points and given some solid advice.

It's better to have a full tool box and choose not to use a certain tool than to find yourself in a situation where you need that tool that you don't have and then crash and burn as a result.

You stated that you also like to dance but if you went to a dance teacher to improve your skills, you can be assured that the teacher would have you moving to a strict beat and you can bet the farm that every professional dancer of any style that you see can move gracefully to a strict beat.

There is another post on this forum about Clark Terry's advice on learning jazz. One of the points he makes is the impatience of beginners who want to skip the beginning stages to get right to the stage of innovation. It's worth a read. As George Van Eps said "Luck won't do it and Ignorance can't".

Since we haven't heard you play or seen you dance, I will also point out, with all due respect, that there is a real possibility that you may be overestimating your ability of "natural rhythm". There was a brief discussion last fall on this forum of the Dunning Kruger Effect. I would respectfully suggest that you read a bit about it. It's very real and very common.

[cosmic gumbo]

Keeping time is a skill needed by everyone who wants to call themselves a musician. There's no way around it.

[elixzer]

Everything Jake has said here is dead on the money. He's made made some very valid points and given some solid advice.

It's better to have a full tool box and choose not to use a certain tool than to find yourself in a situation where you need that tool that you don't have and then crash and burn as a result.

You stated that you also like to dance but if you went to a dance teacher to improve your skills, you can be assured that the teacher would have you moving to a strict beat and you can bet the farm that every professional dancer of any style that you see can move gracefully to a strict beat.

There is another post on this forum about Clark Terry's advice on learning jazz. One of the points he makes is the impatience of beginners who want to skip the beginning stages to get right to the stage of innovation. It's worth a read. As George Van Eps said "Luck won't do it and Ignorance can't".

Since we haven't heard you play or seen you dance, I will also point out, with all due respect, that there is a real possibility that you may be overestimating your ability of "natural rhythm". There was a brief discussion last fall on this forum of the Dunning Kruger Effect. I would respectfully suggest that you read a bit about it. It's very real and very common.

Can you link me to that post you refer to about Clark Terry please?

Yes it is easy to fool yourself. How many times do we see these people go for these auditions on these TV reality shows for singers and make utter fools of themselves. Actually that really pisses me off because I know they are being exploited for someone elses amusement, like that twat Simon Callow and co. But I would want to really look at HOW they could think they were good, and who told them. because I assume they have family members, friends, who have heard them and supported them to make complete fools of themselves in front of millions of people. How so?

Its a complex subject of course, cause what do we mean by dancing? Do you mean classical or street. Could a street dancer do ballet, could a ballet dancer do street. Who is THE dancer then? Can either of them do Belly Dancing, or Flamenco. There is just so much involved. So diverse.

ballet dancers go to a strict beat. But it is not the same strict beat you see when you watch street dancers is it? So which beat is the right one?

[elixzer]

Could you name some specific jazz records and artists that you like?

You're right that some blues is not strict with the time at all. But with jazz this is much less true, of course it does vary from artist to artist. So I'm curious who you listen to and maybe are trying to emulate.

trouble with me is I love losts of musicians but am real bad with names. But I am gonna pick a wild one--SunRa. lol

Do you think saying 'with jazz this is much less true' that by saying that you are in a way putting 'jazz' in a box---as what is is supposed to be? How do you define Jazz?

Well, using that logic, answer me: why would you have to learn notes from a sheet of paper? Couldn't you just play the notes that 'felt' right? Why learn the chords, couldn't you just put your fingers somewhere that 'felt' right to you? Isn't that more natural than learn that the song goes G, A, Bb, etc? Why do anything technically? Try to answer these and I think you might find the answers to your question.

IF I could sing my guitar that would be good. I am trying to sharpen up my ears so I can get a sense of eg tones I might sing. But I HAVE to go through the pressing certain notes, and combinations which is the language of the instrument. But IF I was to sing a rhythm spontaneously which I am usually always doing, why couldn't that then be translated to guitar ONCE I knew language of the guitar?

Also, you've used the term "natural rhythm" a few times. Learning how to read rhythms isn't trying to suffocate any intuitive rhythmic abilities. The whole point is just to be able to play something that somebody else played or that somebody wants you to play. A little OT, but I've actually seen this a lot - students that can hold a beat and sound good, but they only have a vocabulary of a small handful of different rhythms. When you demonstrate, either by ear or on paper, a rhythm they haven't played before, they are flabbergasted and can't do it.

That is a great point! Yes, I am knowing --talking drum beats--for example that therer are incredibly complex rhythms that I would struggle to do, and would need to learn. HOWEVER what would be the best way, to feel my way into it or read it from a sheet of paper? I mean you admit that music has not always been learnt from notes on paper, right? I am into Brazilian rhythms and have not even touched many yet, and most likely though will need to read them. But by natural, I mean that quickly begin feeling the beat.

Similarly, though some might disagree, I don't think a metronome is unnatural. I think it's "natural" for a song to stay at generally a steady tempo. Sure human beings rush and drag, but from measure to measure, the beat is generally pretty consistent in all genres of music whether the musicians are trained or not. For somebody like you, the metronome is just a way to help you stay consistent with rhythm, to have a framework of consistency to work with.

Sometimes I will begin singing with a ticking click. I can sense the mechanical nature of that ticktock and will set a challenge to undo that mechanical--add some soul. I have a lot of trouble with modern electronic music. Dancing to it i begin to feel like a part of a machine, no matter how cool the rhythm may be. Actual muscians playing cannot be beaten, and i think that their music breathes. Here is a VERY powerful favourite of mind. I actually got the CD of their music and I can say it is THE most powerful music I have ever heard and danced to! The video is magical too. I have never had a music possess me like this one does.

Honestly, something that happens a lot with beginners is they just can't get to the chord in time because their motor skills and muscle memory haven't developed yet. The metronome is a bullshit test - you truly know what you're playing if you can do it in time. You might think it's more "natural" to pace a song how you "feel" but for you, as a beginner, what you might actually be talking about is just taking as much time as you want to switch chords or get to the next note, because you haven't developed your technique well enough to actual play the piece at the pace you actually want to play it. Yes, the metronome will rush you and crowd you if you haven't developed your technique enough.

Yes I can understand that.

I give guitar lessons to some very young children and I see this problem all the time. I will teach them a melody like "Twinkle Twinkle" and once they have it memorized they may play it at an excruciatingly slow tempo. When I discuss this with them they generally are not aware of how slow they are playing the piece. They think they are playing it quickly because for them, they are using their brain and moving their fingers as fast as possible. But in reality, to the listener, there's far too much time in between notes. I know you aren't a small child, but I think there's an analogy here. You might "feel" the rhythms you are using are right or sound good, but it might just be that your technique isn't developed enough to play with a steady beat, so attempting to do so feels stressful and "unnatural." Just means more practice! Of course, I'm just speculating, as I haven't heard you play.

LOL, Twinkle, is one of the nursery rhymes I use for MY ear-training--ie., when I try and find the notes on the scales.
I would need to know a Jazz player who claimed they never went near a metronome. I always look for stuff like that, lol. But in NO way discredit any of the wisdom you are sharing here. I thank you for it.

[oilywrag]

Hi Elixzer, we seem to digress a little, As this is a jazz guitar site I will presume you want to learn jazz guitar not dance or drums.. If you can't play the notes on the sheet how will you anyone within earshot know what you are playing.. better to know the rules before you break them.. So! Seeing how you play solo, Record yourself playing a simple melody to a backing track ( Shadow of your smile) and see if it sounds right, If it does then good if it doesn't you got some work to do..All music is based on pitch and rhythm, if you alter one or the other the tune is not the same.. If this seems a little harsh,sorry. But it is because time is very important, the sooner you learn that the better...

Tom..

[elixzer]

Hi Elixzer, we seem to digress a little, As this is a jazz guitar site I will presume you want to learn jazz guitar not dance or drums.. If you can't play the notes on the sheet how will you anyone within earshot know what you are playing.. better to know the rules before you break them.. So! Seeing how you play solo, Record yourself playing a simple melody to a backing track ( Shadow of your smile) and see if it sounds right, If it does then good if it doesn't you got some work to do..All music is based on pitch and rhythm, if you alter one or the other the tune is not the same.. If this seems a little harsh,sorry. But it is because time is very important, the sooner you learn that the better...

Tom..

Sorry if I was seeming to get off track. Yes this is about the guitar.

[elixzer]

If you check out OP, you will see this thread was inspired by another user who has said that HIS teacher had told him NOT to pay attention to metronomes, etc, and that this advice was detrimental for him. So the moral there is 'teachers aint always all that for those they aint all that for'

[JakeAcci]

Elixzer, in response to your last response to me, I think you may not be reading what I write carefully enough. I may jump around points a bit, but I try to be as literal and direct as possible in each point. So I want to repeat one bit that you sort of skipped over:

Why would you have to learn notes from a sheet of paper? Couldn't you just play the notes that 'felt' right?

Why learn the chords, couldn't you just put your fingers somewhere that 'felt' right to you? Isn't that more natural than learn that the song goes G, A, Bb, etc?

Why do anything technically?

Why are you learning skills in the first place, isn't music just about expressing your vision? How could learning any technical skill be better than just putting your fingers where it felt right and letting the music come through your "soul?"

I am not asking rhetorically. Try to answer these questions, right here in this thread, I think it will do a lot for your understanding and perspective on the issue of reading rhythms and developing a more technical understanding and ability when it comes to rhythm.

[fep]

"Musician" says, "I'm a good player, I just don't like to play with a click track".

Translation, "I don't have good time".

My goal is to play with a metronome and make it feel like a groove, like the metronome is playing a groove. When you really lock in it actually becomes pretty easy to play with the metronome, and fun too.

Check this video out, he can demonstrate it much better than me.

[monk]

In another thread someone said:

This really inspired this thread because I have been wanting to explore about rhythm.
I am VERY surprised what he says, becauseI am fresh from my first ever lesson with a guitar teacher, and he straightaway came on strong about paying attention to how rhythm is written after I played him a nervous rendition of a simple chord progression of The Shadow of Your Smile. I have also noticed how nearly every guitar teacher I have seen on youtube vids emphasize metronomes. So to hear of other teachers encouraging NOT to do that is surprising to me.
But he also stresses that that advice didn't do him any good and as far as I dig he wants that discipline.

Now I know it is easy to be cocky if your a novice, and think you know it all, but the way I feel is this: I love dancing also, and singing and I feel I have natural rhythm. So I find it constrcting when someone insists I look at notes on a piece of paper telling me to wait two beats or a quarter of a beat, etc, because I feel this should come from the soul. I also do not intend to play with a band, so there is no pressure to HAVE to read music so I am not 'off time'.

But ALSO, take the song The Shadow of Your Smile, or ANY song...WHO says I HAVE to do it the rhythm it says on a sheet? The visions I have for this song when I get more confident is gonna be as flexible as ever. It may kind of get a steady beat and then really slow up, and stay a while on some vibration. IE it is all about feeling, and I could play the song different tempos every time. Why not? Is there a law says I cannot do this? What are your thoughts.

If you check out OP, you will see this thread was inspired by another user who has said that HIS teacher had told him NOT to pay attention to metronomes, etc, and that this advice was detrimental for him. So the moral there is 'teachers aint always all that for those they aint all that for'

I've highlighted some of the points in your previous posts to make a few comments.

First, while you did quote another post in your original post, you really seemed to be bristling at the fact that your new teacher took you to task for a poorly played rendition of The Shadow of Your Smile. He obviously is a musical moron who is too stupid to realise that you have "Natural Rhythm".

Next, you inquire as to who has the right to dictate how a song should be played. Let's begin with the composer. Johnny Mandel obviously had a melody and harmony complete with a rhythmic scheme in mind when composing the tune. While there is always room for interpretation, if the tune becomes unrecognizable in simple performance then something's wrong.

Lastly, tempo and rhythm are two completely different things. Regardless of whether the tempo is fast or slow, the melody and chord structure and internal rhythms remain the same relatively speaking.

[KennyH]

Once again, JakeAcci brings to the discussion wonderful insights, wisdom and maturity.... words worth listening to and to ponder.

[elixzer]

I've highlighted some of the points in your previous posts to make a few comments.

First, while you did quote another post in your original post, you really seemed to be bristling at the fact that your new teacher took you to task for a poorly played rendition of The Shadow of Your Smile. He obviously is a musical moron who is too stupid to realise that you have "Natural Rhythm".

He is not my guitar teacher. That was a free first lesson. I cannot afford to pay him for lessons. I mentioned it because his response contrasted with the other member's telling that he was told to not be concerned with a metronome and just feel the music.
Do you or do you not know that some people do seem to have natural capacities. Ie., some people can dance, whereas others find it hard to tap to music on time etc. That is all I mean, not that I am the MASTER of rhythms

Next, you inquire as to who has the right to dictate how a song should be played. Let's begin with the composer. Johnny Mandel obviously had a melody and harmony complete with a rhythmic scheme in mind when composing the tune. While there is always room for interpretation, if the tune becomes unrecognizable in simple performance then something's wrong.

Then what are you doing on a Jazz forum for if you think like that?

Lastly, tempo and rhythm are two completely different things. Regardless of whether the tempo is fast or slow, the melody and chord structure and internal rhythms remain the same relatively speaking.

I have weird ideas and I nurture them. yesterday, I watched some videos of different people playing The Shadow of Your Smile and they all played great, and most started in same place where it must say on the notes etc. But...

[FatJeff]

Elixzer: you go on and on about how you have natural rhythm. How about you let us be the judge of that? Play us something that displays this vaunted natural rhythm, and let us hear it. I'm willing to bet that you're not nearly as good as you think you are.

This probably sounds harsh, but I'm growing weary of your insistence that you've somehow got this natural-born inner rhythm, and therefore don't need to practice with the metronome. Your resistance to others' thoughtful advice seems to bolster that.

[elixzer]

Elixzer: you go on and on about how you have natural rhythm. How about you let us be the judge of that? Play us something that displays this vaunted natural rhythm, and let us hear it. I'm willing to bet that you're not nearly as good as you think you are.

This probably sounds harsh, but I'm growing weary of your insistence that you've somehow got this natural-born inner rhythm, and therefore don't need to practice with the metronome. Your resistance to others' thoughtful advice seems to bolster that.

siiigh so grow weary already. It of no interest to me.

[FatJeff]

mmm hmm. I thought so.

[mr. beaumont]

I didn't really practice with a metronome when coming up...I was lucky, I was in a band from the time I could string three chords together that happened to have a rock solid drummer...the guy was (and is) still one of the best I've ever met...I had no choice but to develop good time, otherwise I'd get a stick thrown at my head!

A metronome will help you keep time...but as others have said, keeping time is only half the battle...

I think we all have a natural rhythm...we breathe, right? Our eyes blink and hearts beat....This doesn't mean we'll be able to channel it into an instrument...that takes practice...

I advocate a drum machine or band in a box to people more than I do a metronome these days...Metronomes seem to really make people tense, and if you are tense, you're never gonna play good rhythm...but there's no better teacher of rhythm than playing with others who are better than you...but that's not always possible...

I like to listen to drummers still...Listen to the way they drop bombs, crack the snare, splash the cymbals...when we comp, that's one way to approach it...I also think every guitar player should spend a little time make-beleiving they're freddie green or joseph reinhardt too...sometimes the guitar is a piece of tuned percussion, and that's cool too...

[elixzer]

I didn't really practice with a metronome when coming up...I was lucky, I was in a band from the time I could string three chords together that happened to have a rock solid drummer...the guy was (and is) still one of the best I've ever met...I had no choice but to develop good time, otherwise I'd get a stick thrown at my head!

A metronome will help you keep time...but as others have said, keeping time is only half the battle...

I think we all have a natural rhythm...we breathe, right? Our eyes blink and hearts beat....This doesn't mean we'll be able to channel it into an instrument...that takes practice...

I advocate a drum machine or band in a box to people more than I do a metronome these days...Metronomes seem to really make people tense, and if you are tense, you're never gonna play good rhythm...but there's no better teacher of rhythm than playing with others who are better than you...but that's not always possible...

I like to listen to drummers still...Listen to the way they drop bombs, crack the snare, splash the cymbals...when we comp, that's one way to approach it...I also think every guitar player should spend a little time make-believing they're freddie green or joseph reinhardt too...sometimes the guitar is a piece of tuned percussion, and that's cool too...

In my last phase I got into pushing myself to practice with a ,metronome--something i was dreading, because as you say it is mechanical and horrible actually. However I found this really intersting one that has all these interesting sounds like you can change to drum-like sounds etc. I have it in the list in my guitar file that i will dig out when i find it. I was more so praticing fingerstyle, and scales. But all that maybe contributed to me putting guitar down lol I dunno, so at the moment I am more focusing on trying to understand chords and ting, but now I am wanting to understand Brazilian rhythms on guitar --which is to do with finger-style of course.

Also I love the idea of using the guitar as a percussive instrument, AND the John Lee Hooker method of tapping the foot sounds cool also and less mechanical than a regular metronome cause we are not machines

Also, some people don't breathe right which is a shame. their breathing is too shallow, mostly cause of stress, lack of exercise etc.

[JakeAcci]

v

Elixzer, in response to your last response to me, I think you may not be reading what I write carefully enough. I may jump around points a bit, but I try to be as literal and direct as possible in each point. So I want to repeat one bit that you sort of skipped over:

Why would you have to learn notes from a sheet of paper? Couldn't you just play the notes that 'felt' right?

Why learn the chords, couldn't you just put your fingers somewhere that 'felt' right to you? Isn't that more natural than learn that the song goes G, A, Bb, etc?

Why do anything technically?

Why are you learning skills in the first place, isn't music just about expressing your vision? How could learning any technical skill be better than just putting your fingers where it felt right and letting the music come through your "soul?"

I am not asking rhetorically. Try to answer these questions, right here in this thread, I think it will do a lot for your understanding and perspective on the issue of reading rhythms and developing a more technical understanding and ability when it comes to rhythm.

^

[oilywrag]

Hi Elixzer.. Why do you want to explore Brazilian rhythms? When from your posts you don't yet understand simple rhythm playing. FatJeff's post may have been harsh, but very honest.. Mine at the time was even harsher. The Del key won me over though..We all have to start somewhere, the problem seems to be you want to start too high up the ladder, and you don't fully grasp what will happen when you lack basic knowledge.. Combine this with an attitude that doesn't like to be told anything. We'll say no more.. The bottom line is, learn to play in time if you want to play music of any kind, by yourself or with other musicians..If you don't you never will play what you say you want to..

Tom..

[elixzer]

The Del key--you mean the tab? It has annoyed me because they only show you a certain amount and then want rent!

why am i not going a, then b, then c? Sometimes I do and then I do z just fur the HELL of it, and Y and X