Questions from a disenchanted beginner jazz guitarist

[Jamarac]

Hey there, I'm a beginner jazz guitarist. I've been interested in jazz guitar for years now and a couple months I decided to finally begin taking lessons and I've been doing weekly lessons since february or so.

The thing is that I feel like really discouraged because everytime I pick up the guitar for jazz I feel so damn lost. I'm working on Tune Up and right now I'm just play major scales over the different 2-5-1's and my playing sounds so boring and non musical that I almost don't feel like practicing.
As for my teacher he gives me something different to practice every week but none of it seems to add up and give me a better understanding of doing what I really want to do which is improvise. I've learned 7 major scale shapes and a lot of arppegio shapes for maj,min,7th chords and remembering them isn't very hard but doing anything musical is and I spend so much time just playing around with them and trying to work them with the major scale to make something musical but I hardly can.
I always hear people say to listen to alot of Jazz and learn by listening and picking up licks from recordings. My problem with this is that not only is the playing usually so complex/fast that I don't stand a chance to be able to pick it up by ear or play it but even if I can, the fingering and scales are so foreign to me that I don't understand the lick it all or how to apply it to my improvising all I can see is that it sounds good.

I know this post is rather disoriented since I'm pretty lost and confused learning jazz. I guess what I really want is some solid advice and tangible goals that I should work towards as a starting student in jazz. I hope this possibly gave you some context on which to base your advice.

[fep]

If you just started in February, it sure seems like your teacher has you on the right track.

You're learning a jazz standard, you've learned scales and arpeggios. That's really good progress.

Be patient and enjoy the journey. From what you've written you are on the right track and you're asking the right questions.

[M-ster]

I'm seconding fep: you're on the right path. And, being frustrated is part of what drives us to improve.

Are you playing your arpeggios through your tune (Tune Up)? Are you playing steady 8th notes from your scales and arpeggios through your tune's changes? Are you targeting your guide tones (particularly the 3rds of each chord change)? Are you creating a simple 2, 3, or 4 note motif and then trying to maintain it through your tune's changes?

There are many approaches, and, as you practice them, you start hearing what other players are doing, too. "Oh, he's sequencing that motif through the first four bars." Etc.

[Jamarac]

Yeah but I'm missing the part that actually makes me want to play. Actually making music that sounds good to me and that I have fun doing. The past few months have felt so mechanical just memorizing and playing scale positions and arpeggios while my improvisation continues to be dull and boring and progress-less(if that's a word). When I play a blues or rock I have so much fun and even though I enjoy jazz just as much as those genres lately I've been having no actual musical fun with it.

[RonD]

Listen to as many different recordings of "Tune Up" as you can find.
Scales and arps are very important, but hearing the "jazz language" is key. IMO

[ten left thumbs]

jamarac, jazz is so much more complex than blues or rock - you are learning the beginning steps, without which it is impossible to progress, but which alone themselves don't sound that musical. It is akin to starting an instrument from scratch.

As for listening, and the speed of real jazz, everyone I know that goes down this route uses something to slow down recordings for proper listening and study. I use Transcribe, it is very good.

[mr. beaumont]

Patience, grasshopper.

The journey is the destination.


Learm more tunes...the chord forms you're learning are likely all moveable and can be applied elsewhere.

And practice your arpeggios over the form of the tune. There's absolutely no reason practice should be "non-musical."

[Jamarac]

When picking up licks from recordings how am I supposed to go about understanding them when at such beginner level I don't know that many scales/chords? Playing it isn't too hard but I have no idea what scale or arpeggios is being used or what position etc. These are some of the things that don't really allow me to use any of the licks I use in my own improvising because I don't understand them.

[mr. beaumont]

Cop the lick and cop the background chord. Writeout the notes and see what matches up...how do the notes relate directly to the chord? What's there for color? What's in passing?

The chords are the direct connection to the melodic line...i cringe when i hear people (including myself) say "play this OVER this." Don't seperate your thinking like that...

[ten left thumbs]

.i cringe when i hear people (including myself) say "play this OVER this." .

I cringe when I hear 'jazz licks'.

[fep]

I cringe when I hear 'jazz licks'.

Yes, for some "jazz licks" is a dirty word. On the other hand developing 'jazz vocabulary' and "jazz lines" are encouraged. Seems to me they are all the same thing.

[fep]

When I play a blues or rock I have so much fun and even though I enjoy jazz just as much as those genres lately I've been having no actual musical fun with it.

This book is designed to teach jazz for those with blues and rock chops. Although the book uses the word "introduction" it is not a beginners book. I got about half way thru and got sidetracked on other things (like the Modern Method for Guitar Vol. 1 study group ).

I definitely want to restart from the beginning and finish the book. (This is the book I originally wanted to do a study group for.)

I highly recommend it.

Amazon.com: An Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing BK/CD (Introduction to Book & CD) (9780634009709): Joe Elliott: Books

[M-ster]

Yes, for some "jazz licks" is a dirty word. On the other hand developing 'jazz vocabulary' and "jazz lines" are encouraged. Seems to me they are all the same thing.

Ditto. Same thing. The "licks" and cliches *are* the vocabulary. The stuff that works is adopted by other players, and you can identify it throughout your transcriptions and study.

[M-ster]

... There's absolutely no reason practice should be "non-musical."

Definitely.

When picking up licks from recordings how am I supposed to go about understanding them when at such beginner level I don't know that many scales/chords?

I think at this point, if you were to obtain a transcription (or actually transcribe yourself), it would be very helpful to discuss it with your teacher or someone else more experienced. It *is* hard to "get it" at the beginning, and once you have some things pointed out to you - "This is a scale fragment." "This is an arpeggio from the 3rd of the chord." - you'll begin to understand, and it will all make sense.

[Dad3353]

Good evening, Jamarac...

If you want to study grammar, it can be a dusty old subject. It can also be extremely useful, but dusty just the same. It comes more to life if one reads some good prose, or poetry, see plays, converse with erudite companions. The study part is optional, in fact; it just makes the journey a tad shorter.
Similarly with music (not only jazz, but classical, or any sophisticated music...). You may dispense with the lessons, and pick it up through listening, or playing with others, but the road is harder. The 'dusty' bit can be made more interesting, as in grammar or literary studies, by practicing (that's to say, applying the fragments and crumbs...) in any way that interests you. Listening to the 'greats' may well be instructive, but there are also many 'less great's that are much easier to follow.
For my part, I've been crawling the road for over 40 years; some of it is starting to make some sense (but then again, I'm slow...). I have no ambition to be able to understand anything by Charlie Parker or Sonny Rollins (to name but them...), but the 'standards', in their 'original' versions (mostly show tunes or popular songs...) are easy enough to work through (Autumn Leaves, Misty, Summertime etc...). It will take me a few dozen lifetimes to be fluent in all this (and after all, I'm a drummer, anyway...), but the essential to me (and I would hope, for you...) is to play for your own pleasure, first and foremost.
In short, let it flow, don't panic, don't worry, and if you don't enjoy the dusty aspects of your efforts, leave them to one side (or do only the bare minimum...). All will be revealed in time, in any case; sooner if you can 'nail' those non-musical exercises, later if you skip anything.
It's not a competition, anyway. The only winner is yourself, and, whatever you do (or don't...), you can't lose.
Loosen up, get out more, kick a few cans down the street, breathe deeply and get back to the fretboard.
Hope this helps...

[339 in june]

some said "shut and play yer guitar"
I'd say "play yer guitar and enjoy"
If you have fun playing blues or rock, don't give up !
if you have not yet assimilated all the "theory", what the matter ? This for sure will come later. Try to have some time to let the feeling drive you.
Find some folks to play with, even if you make mistakes, even if you feel your solos "boring", it will take some time to have Sco's mastership
Just be patient, and, enjoy

[ten left thumbs]

Yes, for some "jazz licks" is a dirty word. On the other hand developing 'jazz vocabulary' and "jazz lines" are encouraged. Seems to me they are all the same thing.

I'm not sure I agree. By 'licks' mostly people mean set phrases, learned in all keys and repeated, woven into a solo. Works well in blues.

Seems to me jazz is much more about the flow, the phrasing, playing the next thing you hear in your head. Granted there are a few licks you hear over and over and never tire of, like going 3-5-7-9 up a chord, or approach to a chord tone from a semitone below.

I only posted because the OP had said he/she had blues experience and I find many approaching jazz from blues have greater expectations of 'jazz-licks' than is realistic.

And it is quite reasonable to expect that a lot of the practice required for jazz, by way of scales, technical exercises and theory, doesn't sound directly 'musical' - though it is all designed to get you there. At least, I don't find my own scale practice musical.

[cosmic gumbo]

Your teacher has you on the right track learning the things that will become the building blocks to more complex concepts. It may seem like slow going, but it will save you so much time in the long run. I would highly recommend listening to enough jazz until you find a solo from a ballad or slower tempo tune that you love so much that you are inspired enough to learn it by ear, note for note. (transcribing)

I played other genres of music before jazz, and if you played in a cover band, you were often expected to learn the solo by ear right off a record and duplicate it. If that meant a Stevie Ray Vaughan or Steely Dan tune, then that's what you did. That is a very important step in learning to solo, and don't let anyone tell you different. It's the same with jazz, and it goes beyond stealing a few licks. Learning a whole solo puts you inside the mind of another musician, it lets you know how they think about putting choices together to make a solid musical statement. Now go find that song!

[paynow]

I cringe when I hear 'jazz licks'.

I cringe even more when I hear "jazz chords." But I get a twitch when I hear "jazz licks."

You're on the right track. You just have to keep working, keep listening, keep absorbing. We've all been there. DON'T QUIT!!!

I've been playing an instrument for nearly 40 years, guitar for 30, and I still have days when I want to pack it in. And I grew up in the home of a jazz musician, listening to it ALL THE TIME.

You'll get a lot of great help here. So much knowledge and support. And the fact that you feel you're not getting it means you actually care. That's truly important.

[phdmerrill]

This may seem counterintuitive (and it goes against the advice some have given you) but forget about making music. Forget about "learning the language" or any philosophical mumbo-jumbo. Forget about how jazz is supposed to sound.

It's probably the most shallow aspect of the process, but chops, meaning the ability to play mindless and formulaic things with technical precision, is what players must attain in order to play anything that might be called music. The basic premise of an apeggiating the changes is moronically simple and you don't have to be a genius or even creative to do it, but if you have the chops to do it, you will really sound like you know what you are doing. You just need to practice it a lot (and be sure you are practicing using different rhythms, note groupings, neck positions, etc. Be creative with your practice routine, and you'll make more creative improvisations). It's not glamorous work, but it's not something you can get around. The better you get at it, and the more you integrate different rhythmic concepts, harmonic substitutions, note groupings and shapes, the more discerning, diverse, and musical your playing will be.

Long story short, if your arpeggios don't sound musical, it's because you don't have a strong enough technical command of them. It's not that you lack creativity or are missing out on some conceptual secret.

[Buster Loaf]

if you're not having fun playing with scales and arpeggios, maybe music is not for you

[phdmerrill]

I remember just starting out I was frustrated that I was being supplied all this theory and all these different notes to chose from, but no one seemed to address: "How do you chose what to play from those notes?" I thought I must not be cut out for music if I couldn't make these scales and arpeggios sound good. I suspect you might be feeling the same way.

In a practice situation, you should chose one premeditated template for choosing notes at a time. It's good to be formulaic when you are learning new things. Play a specific rhythm or a specific note grouping for each bar. When you get sick of it, come up with a new one. Take the improvisation out of it, just make a challenging exercise. When you get this stuff under your belt, then you'll have the chops to improvise.

[Reg]

Yea...maybe jazz isn't your thing. Take a break for a couple of weeks... then quit... I'm joking of course... but if you don't have motivation... it's difficult to develop any skill. Find out what motivates you... You should already know...

There are a few levels of musicians... you usually start at the bottom. Even in this instantaneous, momentary world... your going to be a lousy or somewhere near the bottom...player for a while... get use to it.

You can't push a button or download the skills. There is a direct relationship to how much organized time you put in on learning and practicing your skills...

You need to make choices... and back them up...
Reg

[Marty W]

Yeah but I'm missing the part that actually makes me want to play. Actually making music that sounds good to me and that I have fun doing. The past few months have felt so mechanical just memorizing and playing scale positions and arpeggios while my improvisation continues to be dull and boring and progress-less(if that's a word). When I play a blues or rock I have so much fun and even though I enjoy jazz just as much as those genres lately I've been having no actual musical fun with it.

Hi Jamarac,

You said you enjoy blues and I'm assuming you mean 3 chord blues. How about jazz-style blues progressions?

There are many variations on this but here's one to try if you don't already play it:

G7 C9 G7 G7
C9 C9 G7 E9
A7 D9 (G7- E9) (A7 - D9)

All changes are 4 beats except the turnaround which is 2 beats per chord.

I'd suggest soloing through this without a backing track, at least part of the time, trying to play a chord tone on beat 1 of each measure. When you can do that without getting lost you're on your way.

[Nuff Said]

Apply practice routines to music/songs that you enjoy playing, then you should get more enjoyment out of playing.

Nuff