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I remember my first jazz teacher, great player and a good guy. He taught me a lot of necessary things (and some fun things too). One day, though, I told him, "I'm a rain barrel that's overflowing. There's no point teaching me anything new until I've absorbed some the old stuff. It's. Just. Too. Much!"
He understood.
There's a lot to learn. It takes time and there's no way around that. It's worth the effort, though. One thing that helped me was being a songwriter. I knew that songs were made of parts: go like this for awhile, then like that, come back to the first thing, and then slip way over there for a change of pace, and come back to the first thing. The jazz rep is massive and yes, there are some "must-know" tunes, but I think early on it's a good idea to pick songs you love and already know by heart. (If not on your guitar, at least in your head.)
I like "silly" songs ("Frim Fram Sauce," "Straighten Up And Fly Right") and riffy tunes ("Lester Leaps In," "Benny's Bugle") and made a point to learn those. They're not "All The Things You Are," I know, but I dug playing them and it made learning more challenging stuff easier.
Learn a few Charlie Christian solos--they're not that hard, they swing like mad, and you'll have a lot of fun with them.
Jazz is vast--start where it makes sense to you (-the blues were my way in) and work from there.
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06-20-2012 06:12 PM
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When you've really mastered those major scales in 5 positions, start mixing up the scale notes, then tastefully just add the non-scale tones between scale tones as you play. Then you will hear what you're trying to! Worked for me.
Also, experiment with displacement (try an Am7, Fmaj7 or Cmaj7 arp over Dm7, for example to emphasize different sounds).
Although there's a ton of theory, remember that the theory helps to explain jazz, not necessarily to play it.
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When imposing chord structures over chords I think it's better to think number than actual chords; if you want to impose Am7 on Dm7 it's easier to think 5 b7 9 11 because you can use this thinking to other tones / chord types. Triads tend to be easier to impose than seventh chords.
You can expand this thinking to
Maj 7 1 3 5 / 3 5 7 / 5 7 9 / 7 9 # 11 / 9 #11 13 / #11 13 1 / 13 1 3 (triads)
1 3 5 7 / 3 5 7 9 / 5 7 9 #11 / 7 9 # 11 13 / 9 #11 13 1 / #11 13 1 3 / (seventh chords)
7 1 3 5 / 3 5 b7 / 5 b7 9 / b7 9 # 11 / 9 #11 13 / #11 13 1 / 13 1 3 (triads)
1 3 5 b7 / 3 5 b7 9 / 5 b7 9 #11 / b7 9 # 11 13 / 9 #11 13 1 / #11 13 1 3 / (seventh chords)
(impose a #4 up or above to get altered sounds)
m7 1 b3 5 / b3 5 b7 / 5 b7 9 / b7 9 11 / 9 11 13 / 11 13 1 / 13 1 b3 (triads)
1 b3 5 b7 / b3 5 b7 9 / 5 b7 9 11 / b7 9 11 13 / 9 11 13 1 / 11 13 1 b3 / (seventh chords)
m7b5 1 b3 b5 / b3 b5 b7 / b5 b7 9 / b7 9 11 / 9 11 b13 / 11 b13 1 / b13 1 b3 (triads)
1 b3 b5 b7 / b3 b5 b7 9 / b5 b7 9 11 / b7 9 11 b13 / 9 11 b13 1 / 11 13 1 b3 /
(seventh chords)
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You Swedes need to get more sunshine
Originally Posted by oldane
What's with all the melancholy? Radka Toneff anyone:
? OK, Norwegian but same difference
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Well Portuguese are also very melancholic and one can't get much more sun than we do
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I agree with you fully. Beginners have no place taking the advice of some of these so called teachers running around. It's too much, too hard, too complicated for a beginner. I can also attest to playing scales and sounding better. Just last night I tried playing arpeggios over Blue Bossa. Forget it- too fast and too difficult. I would much rather play say, a minor melodic scale than have to remember all those arpeggios.
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And also it's sad how this thread degenerates into technical speak. This guys a beginner and this did not help him one bit.
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Here is a great video from a great bass teacher on learning jazz bass, in particular walking bass for the rank newbie. Very accessible and in plain English.
Give it up for Scott Devine:
No technical stuff, just the relevant facts. No theory either.
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that bass video was really great - original poster should check it out
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Hey guys maybe let's not ressurect dead threads? The OP probably stopped reading the responses well over 9 months ago.
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Dear Jamarac,
I think that it simply needs time. Give time to you and your teacher. Studying jazz is a difficult thing to do.
I will advise you to focus more on the arpeggios of a song, not so much on scales. You have to spell out the changes in your lead playing.
Learn the melody and the chords of "tune up" by heart. It is difficult to start improvising before learning the tune. After this, play only with the arpeggio notes. Then, add some chromatics. After some time it will start sounding more musical.
Be patient. I have experienced the same confusion.
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How much do you practice in a day? Do you practice every day?
Are you focused in your practice, or is your mind elsewhere?
These are important questions. I think all of us have to make a conscious effort to keep the focus and not just noodle around on the guitar.
Things like these could hold you back, but I'm just making assumptions here.
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People ask these questions without giving us much info about their background in music. How can we advise them if they don't?
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I bet that when you first started playing blues and rock it felt mechanical too. Originally Posted by Jamarac
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I just read the first post and none of the follow ups, so forgive me.
Remember this is a process. If I could get all of my students to GET that playing guitar and LEARNING guitar was simply a process rather than a destination, we'd get a lot of students there faster! You must learn to appreciate the journey! There's no simple way around it besides picking the guitar up each and every day and working at it. You have to find enjoyment in the PROCESS of simply doing this or it will never happen for you.
I would ADD to to you're doing - ear transcribing. There's a whole HELL OF OF LOT going on besides what you'll find in those scale patterns and arpeggios. Enclosures and neighbor tones to be more precise. But you have to HEAR them utilized. By learning solos you hear and SEE what's REALLY going on.
I don't learn guitar solos by and large. I like studying the source of this language, and the source are the great horn players and pianists. Starting with Miles Davis solos in the Prestige years and early Columbia sides with Coltrane and Red Garland is priceless and a great beginning. Miles is a great place to start because he's simple and melodic. Coltrane is more complex, but RED GARLAND is amazingly significant. His lines and uses of enclosures is classic and more complicated, in many ways than even Coltrane. Taking a Miles song and doing Miles' solo, Coltrane and then Garland is illuminating. I tend to get much more out of the Red Garland solos than even Coltranes. There's SO MUCH knowledge there! And your ears just get a work out and understand the lines. Your ears have to understand.
It takes time. You're not only training your fingers, but you're trainng your mind and your ears to hear PROPERLY. And the journey is a fun and wondrous one, if you don't allow frustration to cheapen it and short circuit the process.
ENJOY!!!!
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Hello Jarmarac. I'm in the position now that you were in when you started this string...........how long ago? You must have gotten through your frustration. What I've done is learn the pentatonic scale and downloaded backing tracks to play in the background and I do my best to improv. I don't have a teacher so I rely on the internet and myself to get it down and I think I'm doing OK. Have a look at Matt Otten on the internet (mattotten.com) He is so cool and effortless and is a great inspiration. There is also a good site called coffeebreakgrooves.com - try their backing tracks, some of them are quite slow and easy to improv over. I came to the forum today to see if anyone has any chord shapes that might be suitable to include in my improv in A minor pent. I love soft, easy jazz and really just want to play for myself and my special Lady. You stick in there buddy, you'll get there. My very best wishes to you and your music.
Robert.
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This is a lifelong journey and none of us necessarily has the same timeline. After playing guitar 50 years and messing with jazz for I don't know how long I've moved from a disenchanted beginner to an enchanted beginner :-) My mind doesn't seem to do well with theory though I've spent a lot of time frustrating myself with it. Instead I'll take a book like Joe Diorio's Intervallic Designs, take a few examples and try to work them into the melody of a song. Over time a vocabulary builds up. I can't tell you what I played over that 2 5 1 all time time, but people seem to enjoy it and I have fun making some music and usually I don't screw up too bad :-) My goals are probably different than a lot of people, I just like getting to where I play a song and those parts come together and even if I'm the only one there it makes my day. So my advice would be don't worry too much about getting to the end game here, enjoy the small steps that constitute learning. When you play one arp in a place without thinking about it celebrate. It is said that jazz musicians have lower incidents of alzheimers because they are constantly learning new things. If you learn them too quickly you might run out before you're old!
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Answer from former beginner/hobbyist now "intermediate" player
1. First of all, listen, to a lot of jazz....bebop...hard bop stuff is great--esp. Horace Silver, the Jazz Messengers, Clifford Brown group, Louis Armstrong's plays W.C. Handie album.....this will help you absorb phrasing and rhythm concepts intuitively...even if you can't produce the sounds YET on the guitar you'll hear them in your head....be able to sing/hum jazz heads in your head...Charlie Parker is so revered because so many of his riff-like stuff is so melodic and so well structured that it became the basis for whole tunes which still stand up today, e.g. Billie's Bounce, Yardbird Suite, etc. If you're coming at this from a rock/blues standpoint---think of the Allman Bros. solos---so well constructed you can sing them easily note for note, or Carlos Santana--not really that hard technically but he plays with so much feeling and expression that that is what makes him Santana. Louis A's album above is great because he plays friggin' WHOLE notes at times, and still sounds great....more generally, listen to a lot of swing era stuff---that's what Bird, Diz, Charlie Christian were coming from
2. Play and learn major scales over easy progressions---ten yrs. ago or more, I used the Aebersold Vol. 24 Major/Minor...just play notes, and learn to phrase...hear the individual notes over the chords...start with smaller phrases....extend them...now throw the bebop major (#5 of flat 6) note into the scale, and hear how it allows much greater flow, rhythmically...like the vocal-eze artist Eddie Jefferson sang...."bebop my friend was just a whole lot of fun....you could take any old riff, and make a real long run" ....nowadays there are so many backing tracks around....I bought Band in a Box before this stuff become so prevalent on the web...for $79 or so, plus some add-ons you'll be able to call up a terrific array of tunes (I have an add-on disk with a lot of REal Book tunes on it---160 or so)...With BIAB, you can slow down the tune to whatever....80 bpm if you need to....play the chords slowly on beat 1 or even without the melody...and then hear/visualize what you can play against it...also Aebersold vol. 54 Maiden Voyage is really good...."Song for my Father"is a great tune to just play Dorian and Mixolydian against....Autumn Leaves is just a great, great tune...I am going back to it...to work on chord melody concepts
3. Now work on studying some theory, and applying IT to good tunes to take them apart, and learn to play against them by indentifying key centers...you can play a lot of tunes by just identifying these and working with these...e.g. Green Dolphin St. is mostly C major, a little c minor or Eb major, and a little a minor and e minor....Autumn leaves is mostly Bb major and g minor....as you do this, learn to identify the 3-7 chord tone resolutions, esp. Fa (the 4th tone) and Ti (the leading tone) in the major scale
4. Keep a transcription book, and try to work on listening/transcribing tunes....even easy ones....Flintstones theme is a great rhythm changes tune....listen to that 5-1 opening ....also the bridge melody is a really great illustration of the cycle of dominant changes..."Someday maybe Fred will win the fight...and (modulate) that cat will stay out for the night"....check out the youtube of Barney Kessel/Herb Ellis playing this for inspiration....transcription is really valuable because it shows how knowing some theory can just UNLOCK tunes/progressions and help you to learn/understand/appreciate them..."My Funny Valentine" is like a primer on minor key usage...simple but the chord tone structure is just so architectonic....Want to learn about the minor/major chord----just listen to "Harlem Nocturne" (the Mike Hammer theme)---check out Danny Gatton's playing of this
5. Remember theory is a tool/device/means....not an end....play something for someone who doesn't have the slightest inkling about theory---if it connects, then its probably good....if it doesnt' well, it probably wasn't that great....didn't swing... "To a man with only a hammer in his hand, everything in the world looks like a nail..." is worth remembering in learning music.....Having said that, theory can bestow understanding and that can allow greater facility, appreciation....also working on rudiments/essentials (scales, arpeggios, progressions) is essential because the process of becoming a competent/good/great musician is mostly a matter of training your neurological system to hear/understand/replicate physically in real time and in the case of jazz...with minimal cues (as opposed to say, classical music, where the "script" is pretty much there)
6. To understand harmonic considerations, a decent workbook/expository work can be helpful....I am working my way through "Contemporary Music Theory", Vol 2 by Mark Harrison, formerly an instructor at The Dick Grove School of Music, now on his own, I believe. Published by Hal Leonard...300 pages or so but just the right level for someone, like myself,who knew how to harmonize a major scale but who felt a little unsure about minor scale progressions. Information is well-presented and very clear, and working through the exercises (with the answers in the back) is very, very helpful. Again, do not underestimate the value of spelling chords, writing them out correctly, and being able to understand why that minor 7, flat five can substitute for the dominant most of the time.
7. Understand/appreciate that the jazz guitar/guitarist will always really have to WORK to keep pace with the sax or trumpet players, at least in terms of playing speed....and possibly fluidity as well....also realize that playing harmony on the guitar is just harder than on a keyboard....but on the other hand, the sax player can't really play harmony too well, the guitar can phrase in a more vocal manner than the keyboard by slurring notes, and the fact that jazz guitarist can/must become decent in his harmonic understanding....and all things considered, its not really that much to be bummed about, even while it is a challenge.
Hope this helps.
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"Again, do not underestimate the value of spelling chords, writing them out correctly, and being able to understand why that minor 7, flat five can substitute for the dominant most of the time." Can you elaborate on this? I am curious.
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Two points here---1) easy to "learn" guitar by playing shapes...but in my experience, writing out, the tones on a piece of paper as you play...then finding out all the places on the fretboard where they can be played, really really helps to broaden the understanding...find the inversions....see how this sounds playing just shell chord voicings: Root, 3rd and 7th
2) B minor seven,flat 5 is the vii chord in major scale harmony...and contains the same tri-tone notes f and b that G7, the V (chord) does...therefore they can substitute one for another most of the time, f and b the 4 and 7 notes in c major are "tension" tones...
More generally, as someone who is interested in learning theory generally...the more sensory modes one can use to learn...the more effective the learning will be...so writing out tones, finding alternative fingerings, relating these to songs...riffs, phrases one knows already will all enhance the learning process....instead of doing a minimal effort--then being "satisfied" with that result, or to put it another way, when speaking with my teenage son I keep telling/asking him why "why are you doing the minimum...answering the wrong question---how little can I get away with, vs. answering the right question..."what techniques/processes will help me to learn this most effectively?"
Hope this helps....
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I think the OP dropped out of this thread and found an easier hobby about a year ago.
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He took up rocket science.
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Well most chords a third apart tend to be substitutes. Using Bm7b5 over G7 will spell out the 9 - the b9 or #9 are more common on a V I movement in a jazz context. Originally Posted by goldenwave77
In my experience I have seen G7 used over Bm7b5 more than the opposite. And when I saw Bm7b5 over G7 was mostly on dominant chords without dominant function (I7, II7, IV7, bVi7, bVII7, etc...).
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OP if you know rock then you probably know the minor pentatonic inside out.
Play it along with a Coltrane minor blues, and throw in any other notes you feel like.
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....... maybe learning Jazz guitar was easier back in the days when you had to figure it out yourself......
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Autumn Leaves (Fingerstyle Chord Melody)
Yesterday, 11:56 PM in Improvisation