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my playing sounds so boring and non musical that I almost don't feel like practicing.Sing. Sing. Sing. Even if you learn every shape on the fretboard, every scale and arp, nothing is going to be musical and fun until you can feel the music inside. Start small. Think in phrases. 2 bar phrases are great for this. (Licks if you prefer.) Sing it repeatedly until its yours. Then pick up your guitar...I guess what I really want is some solid advice and tangible goals that I should work towards
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04-09-2012 11:15 AM
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Learning any instrument (or practical skill) can generate those feelings....I've worked my way through them (to some extent) on three unrelated instruments, but for guitar, which was my first instrument, I really think playing rhythm gets you to a good standard much quicker.
I'd beware of a teacher who shortcuts to licks without the foundations...it's a commercial approach becasue that's what most beginners want, but playing four bar licks isn't really getting you far. Rhythm playing gets the chords down, teaches harmony, timing, and scales and patterns follow. I agree that listening is also key to developing the feel for phrasing etc.
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Wow! There's so much advice in this thread!
I'm reading through them and now I'll give you "bad" advice that you shouldn't take but if you were my student I'd have you do in secret (and don't tell anyone on the forum.)
Find a tune you want to learn and learn it by ear. Don't look at a page. Don't read it note for note. If you've got a friend, or can find someone else in the same or similar boat, then go out onto the water together. It's spring here, if it is there, enjoy it. 'same goes for this piece you're going to play by ear. Yeah a favourite recording will be an inspiration.
Now play it and change it in different ways: make some notes shorter, observe the effect it has. Pause. Use space. Find other notes that make "important" notes stand out. But don't do anything that doesn't make any sense to your ear. At that point, you might want to know what it is that works-all these things you've discovered will have names. That's the time to take a look at theory and the naming of things.
As I said, this is not the way many, or your teacher might do it. Take it for what you will.
Below is an article about Lee Konitz's 10 step approach to improvisation. It might be worthwhile to look over and consider. Lee is not a guitarist so he speaks as a musician from that perspective.
Have fun!
David
Lee Konitz 10-Step Method
In very brief, the 10 gradients are incrementally moving from simple (the tune's melody) to complicated (improvising from pure inspiration) all the while keeping the original melody as point of departure/reference for building new material. (The latter steps rely less and less on the original melody, of course.)
All examples take place on the first 8 bars of All The Things You Are. (a great jazz standard)
What to Do with That ???
Ok, you've read (or played) through the examples and... it doesn't really make any sense, yet? Same thing happened to me, so don't worry!
Each of Konitz 10 gradients should be worked on individually for a while. Here's a concise yet detailed explanation of each step :
- 1st Gradient -
The tune's melody, as is. (This one's a "no brainer" really...)
- 2nd Gradient -
Slight variation on the original : identify "target notes", the most important tones of the melody. Connect them together, when you can or wish, with simple musical devices (passing tones for example).
In this step, the focus is on the important tones. Remember that these can be shortened in duration to allow passing tones to happen.
- 3rd Gradient -
More notes added to the line. Using new devices such as : neighbor tones (mostly diatonic), change of direction and skips.
The "target notes" are still present on strong beats but there's more flourishes around them. (Similar to second gradient.)
- 4th Gradient -
While it may be hard to tell the difference between Step 2 and 3 ("what should I play now...?"), Step 4 is really straight forward :
Imagine a stream of 8th-notes (and occasional triplets) that simply uses the "melody notes" as guide-tones. That's the "big picture" of step 4.
Check out “Guide Tones”
- 5th Gradient -
Same as Step 4 (the line is a stream of 8ths and triplets) but adding two new devices :
-Neighbor tones (now more chromatic) and arpeggiation of underlying chords.
-Rhythmic displacement of "target notes" (they don't always fall on downbeats anymore.)
That's where the line really starts to develop into "its own thing".
- 6th Gradient -
According less importance to the melody : target notes still appear in their respective bars but may become subsidiary to the other ones (rhythmically, melodically and in phrasing/emphasis).
In other words : the ornaments can "take over" and get more attention now. The improvised line should also be built from higher and higher chord tones (extensions such as 9ths, 11ths and 13ths).
- 7th Gradient -
Same as sixth gradient but Lee Konitz is using even more "higher" extension and altered chord tones such as b9, #9 and others.
This one is a bit more "out" and chromatic than step 6. It depends on the tune, the player and where the line wants to go.
- 8th Gradient -
Original melody and/or intervals may still be present but they're totally "ingrained" in the improvised melody (barely noticeable, or not very obvious).
This is probably where most "classic solos" stand : a great improvised line that stems from the original melody but that is never too obviously quoted from the original.
Listen to Jim Hall, he's a master at using the melody subtly like this.
- 9th Gradient -
Almost no reference to the original target tones anymore (but the improvised line is still very anchored in the harmony of the tune and has grown from the original melody.)
Lee Konitz may well be the only one to fully grasp this "gradient" of improv. I must admit, I don't really get it ... yet!
To me, this is mind over matter...
- 10th Gradient -
An act of pure inspiration.
No written example can clearly demonstrate this one... it's very personal and somehow mystical.
I suggest you listen to the Kenny Wheeler album Angel Song, the fourth track. Lee Konitz 's solo on this one is a clear demonstration of "pure inspiration".
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+1 oooo yeah
Originally Posted by whatswisdom
David
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Hey Jamarac I feel your pain and remember those days myself...if I could offer one suggestion it would be to listen to "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis...the tempos are pretty slow, the solos are incredibly musical and the tunes are ones that everyone knows and plays at jams etc. This would be a good place to begin learning to play by ear a method that I use for this is to 1. listen to the tune or solo alot like for an hour or two every day for a week or so. 2. listen to the tune or solo so much that I can hear it in my head when it isn't playing. 3. be able to "sing" the solo or the tune. 4. Sit down with my guitar and try to figure it out by listening singing and guitaring. This is the process I used when I first started and I can tell you as you progress what once took week will take minutes or even seconds after enough practice. Good Luck!!!
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Wow...that Konitz piece is just...it.
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JMO, as a non-jazz guitarist who has dabbled in jazz since high school jazz band where I didn't have a clue but at least got some background. (Played trumpet early then moved to guitar)
All music is melody, rhythm, harmony. In jazz we often get so bogged down with the harmony that we forget that the real soul of the music is its rhythm. And it is from the rhythm that you're going to make your technical work start to sound musical. Swing your arpeggios. Practice phrasing with long note, short note. Work with space between.
And when I get in a rut, I go back to vocalists. Not scat either. I try to play a simple melody line from Billie Holliday and articulate it so it starts to convey some of the emotion as her. (Obviously never get there but its a worthy goal.)
Articulation is everything, no matter what genre. How you hit your notes, how you hold your pick, etc. Part of what makes Wes Montgomery unique is that callous on his thumb.
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Take some time to discover yourself musically. Figure out what you want to accomplish or create, and find out what makes your playing unique. Perhaps you are drawn to a certain chord voicing or melodic phrase...expand on that and use that to develop your improvisation. I think we beginners get too caught up with sounding like our idols that we fail to nourish the traits that make our playing musical and interesting. We also tend to fail into the trap of relying on scale shapes, arpeggios, etc. Once you learn them, stop thinking about them. Focus on the music...let your fingers do the work. You cannot think about scale shapes when you're tapping into your creativity. The ideal situation is to just *know* where you are in the music and to find the notes on the fretboard using your ears (the whole point of scales and learning the fretboard is to free the mind from having to think about what notes to play). This will take time, and a lot of your progress is based on your satisfaction with your playing...so have fun and keep exploring
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You're getting a ton of good advice here. I hate to add one more thing, but don't listen to just jazz guitarists. Someone suggested vocalists and I agree....esp. how they do melody. Learning to play a melody with feeling, in character with the nature of the tune, is a really useful thing, and a foundation for good solos, in my humble opinion.
Also, listen to horn players, like Stan Getz, Chet Baker, Miles, Paul Desmond, Terrance Blanchard, Freddie Hubbard, Tom Harrell...and, get this: Toots Thielemans on harmonica is one great jazz soloist. All these names (and others) knew/know how to work a melody with feeling, and create melodic solos, also sometimes called "horizontal" solos.
And remember, it's not necessarily about speed. It's about feeling, emotion. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you have to fill up all the space. Leave some space.....let the listener's brain (and your brain) "breathe" by letting a little silence into your solos. Horn players and singers breathe, and so do us other humans. Blazing, rock-style strings of endless sixteenth notes can exhaust the listener, particularly in jazz. If that model is in your head, set it aside when you sit down to play jazz. I'm not against it, but I don't think it's where you start in jazz.Last edited by Section Player; 04-15-2012 at 07:41 PM.
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Beautiful. EXACTLY! And +100 for including Toots in the equation. Virtuosic BUT: always concerned with melody. Originally Posted by Section Player
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Great advice in this thread... I'm going to print it!
Stick with it... it does get easier. I'm not an advanced player so I'm frustrated by my limitations all the time, but the trick to pushing through the 'I suck' stage is to keep practicing. For me, learning seems to come in waves, sometimes far apart, but the more hours you put in the more fun it gets!
Amen to that!Originally Posted by Section Player
And remember, it's not necessarily about speed. It's about feeling, emotion. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you have to fill up all the space. Leave some space.....let the listener's brain (and your brain) "breathe" by letting a little silence into your solos. Horn players and singers breathe, and so do us other humans.Last edited by AlohaJoe; 04-15-2012 at 10:00 PM.
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+1 Originally Posted by Hexatonics
Interesting points but to me guitarists that try to play jazz and never listen to anything but guitar: Originally Posted by Hexatonics
A. Don't swing
B. Suffer in the phrasing department
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If practicing scales, chords and arps doesn't make you feel any accomplishment, maybe just start with the melody of a song and makes small changes to it. Jump up or down an octave on a note or two. Slide into notes or change the phrasing. Wouldn't that be improv? Just think about a couple of bars at a time, and slowly imagine little changes in the melody.
This came to me just before getting to post 28, the Konitz lesson, which was enlightening.
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I couldn't make my hands do what my ears heard for many years: If jazz does something to you don't assume you know what it is. Technique takes a long time to learn and;
(for learners not still children) 'Technique is in the brain not in the hands' Hal Galper (quoting his own music teacher). I wish I'd heard that when I was starting to try and play jazz. I wouldn't have wasted so much time on drills.
There are two fundamental processing paradigms in learning namely, 'Top Down' and 'Bottom Up'. Everyone can be seen to learn like this one way or the other. For the first think, 'it's only five notes but, ooh that Wes lick is so cooooool' followed by copy to audio editor, loop, intense listening guitar in hand, and a thrill when you eventually get it right and play along with the maestro. 'Bottom up' perhaps you could call the dry stuff, the theoretical structure of the music you must learn to appreciate jazz. If you'd learnt the Wes lick already you'll want to know something about why it sounds the way it does which is the discovery bit in the bottom up stuff. When you go, 'ah! oh! yes, I see...' (you don't really but you think you do and that's enough) Jazz is an open system, there are an infinite number of cups to drink from.
Haiku:
Start small
Start with what you like.
Don't stress.
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05-03-2012, 11:09 PM #40Prome Guest
I have to respectfully disagree with a lot of the advice in this thread. Specifically, I disagree that the OP needs to double down on all of the scales/arpeggios/voicings/exercises.
It is important to enjoy playing music, and it is quite possible to start improvising and learning tunes from lesson #1 without having to spend 6 months getting all of the technique together.
OP, here is what I recommend doing. Learn "These Foolish Things," "Out of Nowhere," "I Remember April," "All of Me," "Autumn Leaves," "Secret Love" and/or blues and rhythm changes. Go to jazzstandards.com to find recording recommendations for these tunes, being sure to listen to plenty of older, hokey vocal versions. Then check out different jazz instrumental versions (you can find all sorts of recommendations on the site). Bring in your favorite renditions on an iPod and insist to your teacher you want to learn the chord changes used on whatever rendition you like the most. DO NOT USE FAKEBOOKS. Have him teach you a decent fingering for the melody.
Then, teacher or not, instead of trying to play fancy stuff over ii-Vs, etc., focus on the keys you are in. If you're not sure, have your teacher tell you what key(s) happen in these tunes. Start by just soloing in the key(s) of the tune. Don't get hung up on "nailing the changes." A basic major or minor pentatonic scale fingering will suffice.
Am Pentatonic:
[chord]
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||---|---|---|---|-*-|---|-*-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-*-|---|-*-|---|---|---|---|
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[/chord]
C Major Pentatonic:
[chord]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-*-|---|-*-|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-*-|---|-*-|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-*-|---|-*-|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-*-|---|---|-*-|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-*-|---|---|-*-|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-*-|---|-*-|---|
[/chord]
When this gets boring, start to learn Charlie Christian solos, and the shapes he used for improvising. Lots of great books out there on this, and you'll likely find his approach very straightforward. He used very similar shapes for soloing as the basic pentatonics above. An important feature of his shapes is how he would generalize the ii-V to play the same shape over both. For example, over Dm7 G7, he'd often use something as simple as this:
[chord]
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||---|---|---|-*-|-*-|---|-*-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-*-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
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[/chord]
You can see, it's based on this basic chord G7 shape:
[chord]
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||---|---|---|---|---|---|-*-|---|---|---|---|
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[/chord]
Charlie would use cool "passing" and "neighbor tones" to chromaticize this shapes. I'll use the letter a, for "auxiliary," to point those out:
[chord]
||---|---|---|---|-*-|-a-|-*-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-a-|-*-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-*-|-*-|-a-|-*-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-*-|-a-|-a-|---|---|---|---|
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[/chord]
Here's a line he might play, which you'll find (in a different key) in his solo on which I highly recommend transcribing:
-7-6-5----------------------------------------
-------6--------------------------------------
---------7-4----------------------------------
-------------7-6-5----------------------------
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For the record, you will have to reckon with all the technique eventually if you want to be a good player, but you don't have to get it all together first just to start having fun playing jazz. It's hard to stay motivated if you aren't having fun playing. And yes, you can play standards and improvise on them just using keys as your guide, instead of trying to "nail" all the changes right off the bat (which takes, admittedly, years of study to do well). Finally, transcribing is critical, so to the extent you have a hard time doing it, insist to your teacher to help you do it in the lesson, and if he won't, find one who will, who will direct you toward attainable tunes and solos to learn. Again, Benson and Wes and Kessel and so many others ate Charlie Christian solos for breakfast, his solos have tough/fast spots, but are generally doable, and will get you feeling great, swinging proto-bebop under your fingers. Best of luck, OP.Last edited by Prome; 05-03-2012 at 11:22 PM.
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05-03-2012, 11:30 PM #41Prome Guest
I want to stress also that using each the entire major scale brings with it many difficult areas to navigate, and can lead to noodly, stepwise, pseudo-jazz playing. A pentatonic just sounds good over everything, and, after all, the pentatonic of the key is just the notes of that key's I/i chord with two extra notes. The notes of the I/i chord sound good over all the chords in that key, since I/i is "home." OP, you'll be surprised how good just the notes of the tonic triad sound against all sorts of chord changes. The great pre-bop masters did this extensively, and even the beboppers used a lot of it.
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05-03-2012, 11:48 PM #42Prome GuestIs this true? I mean, that you know jazz guitarists who admit to you they only listen to other jazz guitarists (and then happen to be sad)? Originally Posted by paynow
Of course, to play jazz we need to listen to great jazz played on every instrument, but we shouldn't shy away from spending a lot of time listening to jazz guitar out of fear we'll not be able to "swing" or will be caught later playing un-swinging "licks."
I used to think, before having a lot of experience, that listening to guitarists was a no-no -- something is out there, like an urban myth, making us think the way to be hip is to only transcribe horn players. But figuring out how different guitar masters visualized/organized then neck is profoundly helpful. Not only that, but when it comes to gigs, with vocalists especially, other musicians expect jazz guitarists to do certain things, to play a certain way. Do I mean we should become cliche? Of course not, but we should know how to play jazz guitar stuff. If you're a creative musician, using the tricks of the masters won't stifle you anymore than learning a lot of theory will (something that has stigma in other circles).
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Good points. I'm referring to people with limited experience who spend all of their time listening to guitar players. Originally Posted by Prome
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I usually don'r write here but this time I had to do it.
"The guitar is not a sax or a voice and cannot sound as such. The guitar is a staccato instrument and when you try to play horn lines they dont have the same impact or tone. Thats Why george is so good, he plays the guitar and loved guitarists. django is the same. Dont forget those instruments cant play harmony so hats the point"
Yeah those Scofield, Metheny, Rosenwinkel guys who play a lot of legatto what do they know? I agree that the guitar is by it's nature more staccato prone but you can play it in a legato way as those three major jazz players prove everyday. And the staccato limitation doesn't stop guitar players from swinging and having a smooth tone; have you ever heard a guitar and a sax playing the same melody and the sax is using legato and the guitar is using staccato and they sound great together? This is also true for piano players, doesn't Keith Jarrett swing his ass off even not sluring notes in the bebop way, this is attacking the upbeat and slurring the downbeat?
"The two hardest instruments in jazz are the piano and guitar becasue they have twice the work"
Are you sure you wanted to write this? So drums is the easiest one because they don't play notes? It's amazing the kind of things you read on the internet, really. To think that someone can read this and think it's true...
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05-09-2012, 11:07 PM #45Prome Guest
I think Benson and Martino sound as amazing as the cats you mention, and they both have staccato phrasing. The guitar is by nature a very percussive instrument. I dig Sco, Metheny, Kurt, etc., but saying legato is better than staccato is no more productive than saying the opposite. Both have pros and cons. I agree, the whole "hardest instrument to play" b.s. is embarrassing to read.
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Prome if you read carefully what I wrote I did not said legato is better than staccato; I just said some guys played legato very well in the guitar, so it's possible to do it. And added some guys managed to have a good swing playing with saxs even in a staccato fashion - the examples you mentioned are perfect.
To me it's a choice but you can swing and sound good using both techniques.
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It's all about choices. Be choosy.
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Original poster is long gone.
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+1. Being a Scandinavian myself I can second that. Originally Posted by Hexatonics
Another Swedish musician I love is the pianist Jan Johansson. He died only 37 years old in a car crash, in 1967, but anyway he made a strong impact on Scandnavian jazz. He was Stan Getz' preferred pianist in the years Getz spent in Sweden and Denmark.
Thopugh he also played more ordinary jazz, his most famous record was "Jazz på Svenska" (=Jazz in Swedish) where he plays old Swedish folk songs slightly jazzed up and only accompagnied by a bassist (Georg Riedel). Lots of melancholia, lots of pauses and notes hanging in the air, a meditative ambience. Very beautiful. I don't know if one has to be a Scandionavian to appreciate it, but anyway, here's an example:
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how about asking your teacher (or yourself) for some exercises that will make you able to make creative music with this simple material that you're now painfully learning.
First, simplify it: take the first II V I of tune up, take one arpeggio position for each chord.
Then you prepare yourself to play that position well, effortlessly, for each chord.
record the 4 bars of the II V I, and repeat them with a looper or something like that.
First passage of the chords: you play the 'right' exercise, the 'boring' arpeggios. on the second passage, you use a few notes from these arpeggios to actually make music. then you practice again, and play music again. and repeat.
when you are comfortable with the first II V I, move on to the next 4 bars of the tune and repeat.
That's just an example, but i think you should remember that every exercise is a preparation for making music, it's supposed to help you making something creative out of it. but you should include some space for it in your practice, along with some very strict and 'uncreative' (even if i don't think of it like that at all) playing.
One friend once told me that if you can't be creative with some material, it's just because you don't master it yet.
the same friend also told me that if a bit of work kills your inspiration, it wasn't really strong at the beginning.
the same friend told me again that i should remember why i practice music, to practice, or to play better music, because i love it.
Needless to say .. i'm having the same issues as you ... i am telling you ideas i have about it ... but i don't apply them for myself
good luck, take care of your love for music
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