The Famous CAGED System

[dleviston]

For me the CAGED system is the most important thing I have learnt. It forms the base for everything you will come cross in the future. it is best to re-organize the system to EDCAG which for the Key of G starts at the 3rd position (G)for the Root (Ionian Scale) From this it follows that the D,C,A & G Scales are the Roots positions for the Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Lochrian Modes. It also forms the base for the Major, Minor and Dominant chords and thier extensions at the 5 positions.
It is a very powerful system and if you do not learn anything else this month. be sure you master the CAGED system

[bobby d]

For me the CAGED system is the most important thing I have learnt. It forms the base for everything you will come cross in the future. it is best to re-organize the system to EDCAG which for the Key of G starts at the 3rd position (G)for the Root (Ionian Scale) From this it follows that the D,C,A & G Scales are the Roots positions for the Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Lochrian Modes. It also forms the base for the Major, Minor and Dominant chords and thier extensions at the 5 positions.
It is a very powerful system and if you do not learn anything else this month. be sure you master the CAGED system

Interesting way of looking at it. Only thing is, CAGED represents 5 positions and you're relating 7 modes.

[dleviston]

Interesting way of looking at it. Only thing is, CAGED represents 5 positions and you're relating 7 modes.

Hi bobby d,

This does appear to be a problem at first viewing. If we consider the key of G then the C shape scale covers the B Phrygian and C Lydian modes.Similarly the G shape scale covers the E Aeolian and F# Locrian modes. The F# Locrian is also covered by starting on the F# of the Iolian, mode shape scale at the 2nd position. To hear the sound of these modes it is recommended that only 1 octave is played e.g. B to B, F# to F#.

[brwnhornet59]

All the modes of every key and scale type lie within or pass through every shape of the caged system. It is a great system, but there is a higher awareness to be addressed. Like so many methods there are advantages and disadvantages to it. But it does serve as an easily seen set of reference points to springboard from....IMO

[Reg]

The point of learning the caged system, Berklee's version or any system... is to get the point where you know and hear the neck of your guitar well enough so you don't need to go through the process... that extra step of actually playing jazz.

If your still mechanically going through the mental or mechanical process of figuring out what and where your playing what you hear, the development of some concept of playing.... or simply reading... you still don't have the system together... what ever learning system your using... is still using you.

All the systems are simply a means to an end... the systems are not the goals. Any system will have flaws... but you will eventually get past the system... and simply be able to play fingerings or positions which reflect what you hear.

As I usually say... you should be able to voice any note on top of any chord anywhere. And yes play any type of note pattern... also anywhere. You will be able to hear the differences of how notes sound from different locations and fingering on the neck.
Reg

[RyanM]

CAGED is all about the octave shapes, and how they connect up the neck.

Those octave shapes can be 'filled in' with whatever you need; those open cowboy chord shapes are just incidental, and referring to the 'C-shape' or 'E-shape' when talking about different positions is just for convenience.

[henryrobinett]

What's funny is I developed my 5 zone chords long before I heard of, or knew what the CADGED system was. I was teaching my 5 Zones to a student and he said that it looks like CADGED. He told me and I just laughed.

I still like playing a C triad and not thinking of it as the A form though. I think it's kind of capo mentality. Nothing wrong with capos btw!

[dogbite]

What's funny is I developed my 5 zone chords long before I heard of, or knew what the CADGED system was. I was teaching my 5 Zones to a student and he said that it looks like CADGED. He told me and I just laughed.

I still like playing a C triad and not thinking of it as the A form though. I think it's kind of capo mentality. Nothing wrong with capos btw!

me too henry. i called them "positions 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6" and eventually saw the term used in guitar player magazine as if the "old timers" had always called them this, so i convert when necessary while communicating with others.

good to see you here,

from sacramento

[fep]

me too henry. i called them "positions 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6" and eventually saw the term used in guitar player magazine as if the "old timers" had always called them this, so i convert when necessary while communicating with others.

good to see you here,

from sacramento

Old timers indeed.

I have some pages on CAGED that I got from a teacher, Bill Thrasher (deceased), that had a 1963 copyright on them. And I wouldn't be surprised if it went back a lot further than that.

Joe Pass used CAGED terminology also.

[JonnyPac]

I like the numbers, but CAGED has become pretty standard. I try not to overuse "boxes" anymore. I'm more about intervals, shapes, pockets, cels, linear runs, etc these days.

[NSJ]

I like the numbers, but CAGED has become pretty standard. I try not to overuse "boxes" anymore. I'm more about intervals, shapes, pockets, cels, linear runs, etc these days.

As all those diagrams in your book show, the guitar is an amazingly symmetrical VISUAL instrument. the Chuck Wayne scales book has 4 patterns, not five: CAGD--building 2 octave scales from the 3rd fret, 6th string, 5th fret 6th string, the 3rd fret, 5th string, the 5th fret, 5th string.

That said, I've been trying to understand intervallic relationships--actually, to internalize them on the neck, in an instantaneous way. Pick a note on the fingerboard--where is the P5 in the bass? M3 in the bass? M3 in the bass? 10ths? 13th? #11? i will occasionally pick a random note, name it, and then go find all the intervallic relationships I can find, forwards and backwards.

[JonnyPac]

As all those diagrams in your book show, the guitar is an amazingly symmetrical VISUAL instrument. the Chuck Wayne scales book has 4 patterns, not five: CAGD--building 2 octave scales from the 3rd fret, 6th string, 5th fret 6th string, the 3rd fret, 5th string, the 5th fret, 5th string.

That said, I've been trying to understand intervallic relationships--actually, to internalize them on the neck, in an instantaneous way. Pick a note on the fingerboard--where is the P5 in the bass? M3 in the bass? M3 in the bass? 10ths? 13th? #11? i will occasionally pick a random note, name it, and then go find all the intervallic relationships I can find, forwards and backwards.

Bingo. Intervals rule everything, IMHO... Even phrasing is affected by choice of note!

[NSJ]

Bingo. Intervals rule everything, IMHO... Even phrasing is affected by choice of note!

Yes. One of my intermediate goals is to be able to IMPROVISE, in the moment, two lines moving/developing melodically (whether that be by contrary motion, parallel motion, or oblique motion). I don't know if that's jazz, Bach or whatever it is, but it sure sounds purdy. I suspect, though, that before I can internalize and make it second nature and improvise on it, I will have to do a lot of written out studies/etudes of the same, analyze them in terms of movement and intervallic relationships, relate all of this to the fingerboard, yada yada yada.

Not even close to reaching that goal. But it's a process, after all.

[NSJ]

The point of learning the caged system, Berklee's version or any system... is to get the point where you know and hear the neck of your guitar well enough so you don't need to go through the process... that extra step of actually playing jazz.

If your still mechanically going through the mental or mechanical process of figuring out what and where your playing what you hear, the development of some concept of playing.... or simply reading... you still don't have the system together... what ever learning system your using... is still using you.

All the systems are simply a means to an end... the systems are not the goals. Any system will have flaws... but you will eventually get past the system... and simply be able to play fingerings or positions which reflect what you hear.

As I usually say... you should be able to voice any note on top of any chord anywhere. And yes play any type of note pattern... also anywhere. You will be able to hear the differences of how notes sound from different locations and fingering on the neck.
Reg

Sorry if I missed this. Reg really nails it on the head here (speaking as one for whom is still being "used" by the system ). To put it another way, I aspire to FUNCTIONAL fingerboard mastery (ie, to arrive at a point where I can just play music as I hear it and not be encumbered by technical issues). This is a several year process, beginning with internalizing muscle memory via constant repitition in the practice room.

[JonnyPac]

Yes. One of my intermediate goals is to be able to IMPROVISE, in the moment, two lines moving/developing melodically (whether that be by contrary motion, parallel motion, or oblique motion). I don't know if that's jazz, Bach or whatever it is, but it sure sounds purdy. I suspect, though, that before I can internalize and make it second nature and improvise on it, I will have to do a lot of written out studies/etudes of the same, analyze them in terms of movement and intervallic relationships, relate all of this to the fingerboard, yada yada yada.

Not even close to reaching that goal. But it's a process, after all.

Hot damn, I love that stuff. I really try to imply more than one line as much as possible in my single-note runs. They call that a "compound melody". From Bach to Bird, it's there. Good luck! It's a fun road to follow.

[gingerjazz]

Hey jonny,the idea of implying more than one line at a time is both scary and exciting at the same time.Are there any good examples you or anyone could recommend that would clearly demonstrate this technique?.Are there any players who use this more than others?.

[gingerjazz]

Sorry if I missed this. Reg really nails it on the head here (speaking as one for whom is still being "used" by the system ). To put it another way, I aspire to FUNCTIONAL fingerboard mastery (ie, to arrive at a point where I can just play music as I hear it and not be encumbered by technical issues). This is a several year process, beginning with internalizing muscle memory via constant repitition in the practice room.

I know many here have it already,but i thought this might be a good time to mention the fantastic book "Effortless Mastery"by Kenny Werner.

[NSJ]

Hey jonny,the idea of implying more than one line at a time is both scary and exciting at the same time.Are there any good examples you or anyone could recommend that would clearly demonstrate this technique?.Are there any players who use this more than others?.

Sorry, not Jonny. But here are my very preliminary thoughts, having practiced playing intervals regularly (for me, this is fingersyle, my hybrid picking is practically non existent)-

For analysis when playing intervals, some questions--

1. Does it sound good overall? How do the two individual lines sound as stand alone entities? Then in tandem?
2. Are the constituent lines still diatonic to the key? Where, if any, are possible non-diatonic notes?
3. What type of motion is involved? Contrary? Parallel? Oblique?
4. What is the resulting intervalic relationship between the two constituent notes that are moving? How does this intervallic relationship change as the two notes move-progress along? obviously, if two notes are moving in parallel, the resulting interval between the notes may not change--a 9th may remain a 9th, etc.

I don't know if these are the "right" questions, I will have to investigate further. These are the ones that make sense to me at this time.

That Kenny Werner book is on my list, too. thanks.

[fep]

Hey jonny,the idea of implying more than one line at a time is both scary and exciting at the same time.Are there any good examples you or anyone could recommend that would clearly demonstrate this technique?.Are there any players who use this more than others?.

I think I've seen/heard it just about every Ted Greene video I've seen. On this on at 2:30

[ottocat]

I just re read Kenny's book for the third time . It really has sunk in to my playing . It is definitely a matter of mind set .
Just play the gosh darn instrument .
It is impossible to be totally absorbed in the music and be "self" conscious .

[gingerjazz]

I just re read Kenny's book for the third time . It really has sunk in to my playing . It is definitely a matter of mind set .
Just play the gosh darn instrument .
It is impossible to be totally absorbed in the music and be "self" conscious .

Hey ottocat,could you please expand a little on your experiences with the book.I think it is a book that does take more than one reading before you start to get it.Would you agree though that people still need to get there scales and chords and arps down,before this kind of approach can truly be applied.I would love to hear more about your thoughts on this.I will start a discussion thread seperately so as not to derail this thread.

[JonnyPac]

Hey jonny,the idea of implying more than one line at a time is both scary and exciting at the same time.Are there any good examples you or anyone could recommend that would clearly demonstrate this technique?.Are there any players who use this more than others?.

I'll see what I can dig up and post. Stay tuned...

[JonnyPac]

Not to derail a CAGED thread...

Here's a classic compound-melody lick (that is not CAGED-based!). Groonin' High!

An example in TAB (based on the "groovin' high" motif):


----------------------------------------9--8--------------------
---------11--10-------------------------------11--9--10--------
------12---------12--11------10--8--9--------------------10----
---12---------------------12------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------

The bold is the implied lower melody and the rest is dancing on top. The low 12's hint at yet another voice, IMHO.

Dig?

[gingerjazz]

Thanks Jonny this is great stuff.