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This basic idea has made its way around the forum a bit lately, but it’s so important (and so new and exciting to me) that I’d love to toss it about some more and see whether any of you have any thoughts to add to it.
I’m talking about what Jonny Pac said that Hal Galper said that George Kochevitsky said about playing a musical instrument: the instrument is almost an illusion. The mind must teach the body to play – not the other way around, as has been the traditional “practice-till-you’re-blue in the face” approach, trying to develop unshakable “muscle memory.”
Since delving into Kochevitsky’s ideas a few months ago, man… how I wish I’d been aware of these things years ago!
For example, VISUALIZE: leave your guitar for a few minutes (I know, it’s hard), and just chill out in a quiet room, burn some incense, whatever – and visualize, in your mind’s eye, your fingers, gigantic if it helps, and your picking hand, gigantic if it helps, and the fretboard, gigantic again, and strings – and see your big self playing slowly, slowly, as slow as need be, a passage that you cannot now play. Hear the music, too. Hum it if you wish.
I flatpick fiddle tunes and have used this technique for that. It absolutely works.
Jerry Bergonzi says, “Very often, ten minutes of visualization is equal to 2 hours of physical practice.”
I think ten minutes of VIVID visualization, seeing your fingers and picking hand going through the passage or tune flawlessly, is worth any number of hours of purely physical practice. I’ve heard players say, "Practice in front of the TV.” This is intended to get your critical mind off what you’re doing, and it’s to take some of the tedium out of endless physical repetition.
But TV practice is still holding us to the repetition mode of learning such complex, fine-motor skills. There is a better way!
Practice by visualization sort of FLIPS the whole learning process. Instead of the body teaching the mind, or nervous system (repetition developing muscle memory), the mind is now teaching the body. Backward, aye? And so much faster, and best of all, it works! If you can work out a difficult passage or tune, whatever, mentally – and become able to clearly visualize yourself playing it accurately, several times, – slowly as need be, giant fingers, giant strings, whatever it takes – you will be able to play it. Don't buy it? Try it.
Kochevitsky goes so far as to say most physical practice is wasted time! I don’t know that I’ll agree completely, but try this. Don’t let your mental movie stop. If it does, don’t chide yourself – just start from the beginning again. Maybe relax more, maybe go slower. HEAR the notes you’re seeing yourself picking.
In _Melodic Structures, Vol. 1_, Jerry Bergonzi says, “With the use of visualization the mind actually teaches the body in a multi-dimensional fashion. It (the mind) practices the fingerings and the notes, it hears the sound and the content, it feels the intention, the emotion, and the nuances of what is played. The body then follows suit. The body teaching the mind is actually the backward process, and for this reason, through the use of visualization, we are able to learn more quickly.” [my emphasis]
BTW, the “giant fingers” technique is a standard one in how olympic athletes use visualization to help earn them gold medals. It’s exaggeration. Seems the brain-teaching-body phenomenon likes exaggerated, even “surreal” elements in the mental movies you make.
Comments, anybody? Questions, ridicule, anything?
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09-04-2011 12:54 AM
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I agree that visualization is very helpful to the learning process. But physical strength is a necessity if you want to really gain full control of the guitar. It takes a long time and a lot of hard work to achieve independence of each finger as well as coordination. Effortless command of finger stretches, shifts, chord grips, etc. I don't know of any shortcut to that level of playing.
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Good point. I failed to point out that Galper and Kochevitsky (and Jonny Pac) do their scales and so on. We're athletes of the little muscles (Galper).
Originally Posted by whatswisdom
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I work on hammer-ons on an acoustic to build strength. Boy, does that ever get your hand in shape! Tnanks for the visualization info. I'll be checking it out some more. I already do some of this when I go running. (Pick a key, recite the scale in 3rds...spell chords, etc.) Originally Posted by Kojo27
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Great post Kojo! Neuro-linguistic programming is a wonderful thing.
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Ha! You know, I do know about Neuro-linguistic programming, but I'm not super-familiar with it, as I'd like to be. I use Creative Visualization all the time, though -- I assume there are similarities. Originally Posted by Vihar
I'm always hesitant to make posts like the one above, fearing I'll "weird-out" the whole forum.
Some see anything new - or "non-traditional" - as VOODOO, man! Such a shame! It's actually pure common sense.
Thanks, Vihar.
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When I read your post, I was thinking "damn I read about NLP a few times, and it sure sounds like it!". lol Or if we go spiritual, many meditation methods have a similar process.
But yes, your post is very inspirational. I prefer this approach over the dry "chord-scale-mindless practice" stuff. I like to think that when the emphasis is on playing (i.e. playing like a child, joyfully), the results will be more joyful to listen to as well.
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I don't think visualization is related to NLP. Nonetheless, visualization has proven to improve performance in athletes competing in sports such as diving, track and field and gymnastics - (individual sports). It has been shown that the patterns of brain stimulation during visualization are almost exactly the same as when the activity is performed.
There is one rub, the technique cannot make you learn, it will only help with things you have already physically experienced. If this is the case, then visualization can increase performance because the mental rehearsal actually triggers the same brain activity as physical practice.
So, from a music perspective, I would say it is a valid way to prepare for a performance but may not help much if you have not already learned and practiced a specific piece of music.
I think it is definitely a good activity for mentally preparing for a solo performance. Maybe not so much in a group setting where reaction and interaction prevails.
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NFNLP - NLP Literary Works: Vivid Visualizations Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
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Thanks for the Interesting article. I see that visualization is in fact a technique used in NLP. My understanding is that NLP relates more to behavior modification, with limited empirical results. Its been around for while so I suppose it has spawned many studies in different areas.
In any case, I do not believe that visualization will teach you how to play a tune or a difficult passage, but it might improve the execution of what you already know.
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Are you saying that, if a player hasn't physically played the piece properly (more or less) on his instrument, then simply visualizing his hands as they play the notes won't prepare him to play the piece? I probably agree, but: Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
Frederick Noad (authored _Solo Guitar Playing_) tells of some great classical guitarist who was taken as a POW and was allowed to practice only 15 minutes a day. (I hope someone else knows this story and corrects any mistakes...) Anyway, the guy decided to practice nothing but a finger combination exercise, using rest and free-strokes: 1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1-1-4-3-4-2-4-3-4. I've done this one myself, all my musical life, and it covers about every possibility. The guy played it up and down every string, at a slow tempo, and that's it.
Back in his place of holding, he practiced in his mind, visualizing entire performances. And I *think* he had folios of Terrega and Sor - lots of music. And he visualized playing this new stuff, too. When they released him years later, he was surprised to find that he could play far BETTER than when he was taken prisoner.
I'm trying to find that story, but I think I have it right. It's in 2nd edition (old) of Solo Guitar Playing.
However - I agree that not all music could lend itself to this sort of "mental movie" rehearsal. And there has to be the hands-on-the-instrument, to maintain strength and dexterity. I do think most people underestimate the power of Creative Visualization, though, and I hope that more will give it an earnest trial.
kj
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Glad you liked it, Vihar. Yes, there are similarities - sure! Originally Posted by Vihar
I like your "playing like a child, joyfully" notion a lot. It must be this way, imo. I think most great players do it without knowing it. And it's why those who begin as adults have so much trouble jumping that "mediocre" fence. Not that they don't sometimes - but it can be hard.
kj
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Hey Kojo27 ... I think the idea definitely has merit with limitations. I am merely sharing some information from sport psychology studies on visuaiization, a very important practice for high performance athletes.
The conlusions were simply that visualization can only stimulate the correct neural paths if they have already been created through physical experience. Basically you cannot learn something new, you can only rehearse. Visualizing something you have not experienced will stimulate the brain but it likely will not stimulate it in a way that allows you to perform the action .... but it is proven way to help achieve peak performance before executing a known routine.
I can only assume that the classical guitar player you mentioned was a pretty high level musician to start with and was rehearsing stuff he already new to compensate for the 15 minute restriction. Very interesting though.
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Gotcha. : ) Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
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Sorry I missed this thread! Good stuff, all y'all. I dig!
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This is true. "sleeping on it" has been proven to help people reinforce skills too. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
Then there is the 10000 hour rule too... sigh
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The classical guitar player in the Noad story was a gifted student, yes. But the more I ponder and do this stuff myself, the more I believe that, if you can visualize vividly enough and if you know, by ear, where the notes would be, on the fingerboard, the notes from a piece of written music, or aurally learned melody, it seems there's no reason visualization alone couldn't teach your body to play that music. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
Granted, most players probably aren't at this level. But the muscle skills involved in learning a new piece of music, for a fairly advanced player, are going to be much the same as those he has used for years in playing other pieces -- so why couldn't his mind teach his body to play a new tune?
I taught myself a fiddle tune this way - one I had never played, but one I could hear vividly in my head. I can use solfege to visualize, in real time (but very slow!), my fingers playing the right notes. I "learned" the tune ("June Apple") this way, and after I could do it mentally, I picked up my guitar and played it just as I'd been hearing it and "seeing" my fingers play it over and over.
(I hope this doesn't sound like boasting - it's really pretty easy with solfege and position playing.)
If this is possible, why wouldn't more complex stuff be possible? Not for a beginner, but if the technique required for the new music is already there... and if you can sight read/sight-sing, or have just a bit of a trained ear???
Comments, anybody?
kj
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This is the key. Gaining the basic foundation of good chops can only be done through spending hours with the instrument. Once this is in place, one can take advantage of this visualization fully. This is not to say that visualization is useless to those who haven't acquired this foundation of technique however; I remember figuring out the head to Dolphy's "Miss Ann", which is a real workout for the fingers, and have been using it along with others things to improve my technique, anyway the first night I got the entire head down on paper I played it through maybe twice, then went to bed, visualizing my fingers playing and hearing the head until I fell asleep. The next day when I practiced it, although I was not playing it perfectly clean, I never stumbled insofar as what notes to play and which finger to use for which note. Originally Posted by Kojo27
This is a very valuable concept and should be discussed much more often. At the same time I think it should be stressed that this isn't some shortcut. As whatswisdom said earlier, only time on your instrument will build up the strength, coordination, dexterity, etc. needed to be a great musician.
Visualization is a tried and true concept, though unfortunately easy to misrepresent as New Age mumbo jumbo. Thanks Kojo for making this thread.
One small nitpick however, regarding the "body teaching mind" vs. "mind teaching body" thing; I don't think that's an accurate way of looking at it. It is always the brain that is putting in place in these neural connections that allow the body do learn certain skills, whether your physically playing the instrument or visualizing it in your head, visualization is merely another way of having the "mind teach the body".Last edited by Extrapolation; 10-07-2011 at 10:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by Extrapolation
Good point. I didn't make this clear at all, so I'll try again quickly. I was thinking of how Hal Galper talks about this, and I used some of his terminology - which doesn't work well here.
Instead of "body teaching the mind," think, instead, of "body training the autonomic nervous system." Muscle memory, in other words. The body, put through hours of repetition, is what Galper talks of as the body teaching (training) the nervous system (or mind, since the brain is the center of the nervous system.)
So that's all I meant by that. You're right -- the brain is king. It's Big Daddy, Boss, all that. The body is at its mercy. But when the brain sets the body on a mission of repeating a scale fingering, let's say, for an hour, without stopping, there results this "muscle memory" phenomenon, a function of the nervous system, of "the mind," that wouldn't have come about if not for repetitive "body" movements. Galper mentions this in reminding us how, at one time, music teachers saw this method (repetition, or "body teaching mind") as the way we learn to play. We know, now, that this is not completely true by any means. The mind teaches the body... to a greater degree than does the body teach the mind.
Hope that makes better sense!
kj
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This to me sounds like another magic pill. Doesn't everyone love the hope of a magic pill? But I'll give it a try to see what happens.
A lot of these theories seem way to esoteric to me. Playing with/for others, that's were the rubber meets the road.
For me what helps my playing the most is...
- Jamming with others
- Recording a tune and letting others hear it for critiques
- Preparing a repertoire for a gig (for someone who doesn't gig often, I think preparing for 2 weeks for a gig is worth 6 month of practice.)
- Writing and recording original tunes and let others listen and critique.
These type of activities are what increases my mental focus and moves me along the road to improvement the most.
I say let's not just post words, post some guitar playing... are we guitar players, or guitar talkers?
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No one here is under the impression that this is a "magic pill", nor is anyone here using this as a replacement for the things you listed. As myself and others have said, there is no replacement for hours and hours of hard work with your instrument, playing with others, etc., and the foundation of chops that is needed to be able to fully express yourself can only come from years of playing your instrument; this is merely another another tool in the arsenal. It is by no means an esoteric teaching, all it is is visualizing your fingers on the fretboard and singing the phrase while you're away from the instrument, which helps to cement patterns and fingerings and whatnot in your brain. Originally Posted by fep
Again, this concept can be very easy to misrepresent or misinterpret. In my opinion it is just another tool, a highly effective one that more people should look into.Last edited by Extrapolation; 10-07-2011 at 10:32 AM.
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A really usefull thing HG said for me was
to paraphraze him
Hear it REALLY LOUD in your head (and your ass will follow)
ie forget all the fingering techique scales etc b/s
you probably already got plenty of that
just get it really loud in your head
yeah ....... I dig that
play what you hear and only what you hear ... no noodling
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Ha! Um ... er ... well ... Originally Posted by fep
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lol, yeah M... you play so well, sure wouldn't mind hearing some more. Originally Posted by M-ster
Ha! Um ... er ... well ...
Besides, I should have included posting transcriptions, those are some rubber on the road too. Your transcriptions are great.
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Yeah! Like Dizzy Gillespie! Originally Posted by pingu
Another element of Creative Visualization -- the really awesome stuff that can spin your head around -- is including sensory detail for all the senses to latch onto, and thereby make whatever you're visualizing seem real. In other words, while you're seeing your fingers do what they can't now do as you'd like, imagine the feel of the strings, how the neck feels, how your right hand feels gripping the pick - use your imagination. Also imagine some pleasant smell in the background, or if your guitar smells nice and woody, imagine smelling that, maybe. Include tastes, too. All the senses.
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