-
Im trying to get a grip on learning and memorizing scales....
It was recommended I start with all the major scales first...
but I have a few questions
1.....do I learn lets say C major scale and learn it all over the neck first and then move on to another scale? How many C major scales are on the neck?
or should I learn all the major scales in one position and then move on to them in a nother position...Like learn all the open scales first for example....
I just feel liek there is so much to learn and I need to pick and start somewhere before it gets overwhelming.....
2....why does a scale not start with the note of the name of the scale?
Im referring to the c major scale that starts on the 7th fret which isnt a c..I mean there is a c on the 8th biut scales dont start with eh note they are named for.....that seems confusing?
thanks for the help guys!!!!!
Lee
-
07-26-2008 11:22 PM
-
The advice you have been given is correct. I also recommend you learn one scale at a time. Start with the major scale, the jazz melodic minor, the diminished scale and the whole tone scale.
Your question number 1:
There are 12 major scales on the neck. One in each key. But each one of these major scales has 7 modes (in my opinion 7 scales within the parent scale). This means you have to learn 7 different patterns to cover the whole neck when playing e.c. a E major scale.
I suggest you memorize these 7 patterns. Buy a theory book, learn how they're build. When you know these 7 patterns (modes), you can move all of these patterns from one key to another.
Then start with practicing all of the seven patterns in C, move on to F (go through the circle of fifths).
When this is initialized you practice it parallel. This means start all of the seven patterns on let's say C. This way you can listen to different soundings each mode has within the major scale!
Your question number 2:
A major scale consists of 7 notes. Therefore if we use the C major scale as an example we get 7 different starting notes within the C major scale. The C major scale is build by C, D, E, F, G, A, B. In C you can use each one of these notes as your root note and flavor your solo or melody line differently. This what people refer to as "modes". The modes' names are Ionian (C), Dorian (D), Phrygian (E), Lydian (F), Mixolydian (G), Aeolian (A), Locrian (B). Remember all of these are still within the C major scale. But thats why you can start the C major scale on the 7th fret (B) and still play C.
To sum up we have a major scale. Within this major scale there are 7 modes. (You move the root within the parent scale). Each mode has a unique sound, and I consider e.c. the lydian mode as a scale of its own. Remember if you play a D major scale then D will be called D ionian, E will be dorian, F will be phrygian and so on.
Try to record yourself when playing four bars of a C chord followed by four bars of Amin. Then try to play these 7 different "scales" (the modes) over these chords one at a time. You'll be amazed. Start with the ionian. Listen how the sound changes when you hit Amin. It's still a C major scale, but now it has gotten an Aeolian sound (a natural minor).
I highly recommend you get the Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine to study this on your own. Then work out your own fingerings or find a good teacher who can show you all of it.
Hope this was helpful.Last edited by C.A.JO.; 07-27-2008 at 03:55 AM.
-
Guitar players often talk about 'shapes' when they refer to scales and chords, and this is because each chord or scale has its own shape that can be played identically in any key.
Another way to look at it is by whether there is a Whole step (two frets) or a Half step (one fret) between the notes. The C Major scale is: CDEFGABC, or you could say: WWHWWWH. If you play that sequence of whole and half steps starting from the eighth fret of the sixth string, you will be playing the C Major scale. If you play that sequence starting from the seventh fret, you will be playing the B Major scale (B,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A#,B). So you only have to learn one shape for the major scale, and you can play it in whichever key you want. Other instruments can't do this because you can't 'see' the notes in the same way on a trumpet etc., so you have to do it by memorizing the notes.
You may be getting confused by the idea of starting the C Major scale from the seventh fret and playing the same notes as are in the C Major scale, just starting and finishing on B. This (BCDEFGAB) is NOT the C Major scale! This is B Locrian, confusingly referred to as the seventh mode of the C Major scale!
There are loads of books which outline scale and modal theory, it seems tough at first, but it's actually pretty simple once you get your head round it. Learning all the modes is a lot of work though. There's a lesson or two on this site about modes.
You will also see scales being described in numbers. The major scale would be 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. This way you can speak about any scale or chord generically without mentioning the key. So if you want to talk about the differences between the major scale and the melodic minor scale, you would just say the that the melodic minor has a flat 3rd (1,2,b3,4,5,6,7). To play C Melodic Minor you just flat the third: C,D,Eb,F,G,A,B. Or, you could say that melodic minor is WHWWWWH. That same shape will apply whichever key you are in.
When it comes to learning scales you can learn them in one position (normally going from the sixth to the first string and back, covering about four frets), then once you're comfortable with that move onto the next one and then start stringing them together. Like I said, its a lot of work but in the meantime start learning songs so you don't get bored.
Hope that helps!
edit: looks like CAJO beat me to it! Sorry for any duplication.
-
I don't know if it's because something is lost in translation or that I've misunderstood you, but I don't agree on this. It is correct it is B locrian, but it is the 7th mode of the C major scale. I too see the seven modes as scales, but all chords from the key of C major (Cmaj7, D-7, Esusb9, Fmaj7#4, G7, Gsus, A-b6, Bø) share the same C major scale. When playing B locrian, the C first sounds dissonant over B half diminished when it becomes the b9 of the Bø chord. So B locrian is the seventh mode of the C major scale.
Originally Posted by abracadabra
Last edited by C.A.JO.; 07-27-2008 at 04:57 AM.
-
CAJO, I completely agree with you. It IS the seventh mode. I just meant to say that it is confusing! Which, at first, it is! Originally Posted by abracadabra
-
okay... sorry. English is not my native tongue, so like I might suspected I just misunderstood you.
-
hey guys,
thanks for the info...a bit confusing but all in time.....
I did go out today and get a beginners jazz book and have looked a lot of ( and printed so I can read when I have downtime at work) stuff up online ( sometimes that just makes it more confusing too)
I will certainly start with the majors...
however when I was at the music store one of the teachers suggested I learn all the major scales in one spot....A-G in and around the 3rd fret....and then worry about moving them around on the neck.
I was thinking that I would start with C ( being natural ) and learn it in all the various places on the neck and then move on....
problem there is when I looked up scales I was having a hard time looking for what I think I was trying to find...ok that sounds confusing, but for instance I found one site that showed me a "major C scale" for example in 12 places...including the open position and then after the 12th....
then I read that there are 5 major shapes.....
It started to feel like ok I need to stop looking things up because there are sooooooo many variations, opinions and what not
so I have the book...
will start reading tomorrow and come home from work and try to make some sense out of it
OH yeah...one more question
when I was taking lessons my teacher was showing me how to stack thirds and build chords....but wouldnt you need to know the scale to be able to do that?
You have to know the notes to be able to add that 7th or 9th?
thanks for all the patience
-
I like to practice scales i.e, G major 6th string, 3rd fret, second finger. Then G major 5th string, 10th fret, 4th finger. Same for all (or reverse).
Same fingerings for relative minors, similar fingerings for major and minor penatonics. I'm pretty much self taught on this so.....To me it gives me a lot of direction and security.
As far as stacking thirds etc.. I think it is better to just learn all your key signatures by heart and you just know what chords go with what, Just my opinion.
Sailor
-
One thing that may help you is to analyze a scale in terms of the intervals it represents with respect to the root. So, the major scale is the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 where the 1 is the root. All other scales are the same way - they have a specific intervallic formula. Then, link each "position" of the scale to common chord grips. If you really work on this for a while, pretty soon, the patterns of all the various scales will begin to fuse together so when you think of a particular chord, say C major 7, you can then see may different scale patterns surrounding that C Major 7 chord grip at any particular location on the fretboard. After I began doing this, I found that learning and remembering scales was a lot easier because they ceased to be just patterns and began to have meaning, i.e. they are intervals that relate to the root of the chord I am playing over. Plus, it makes it much easier to find the pattern of the scale at any point on the fretboard. The CAGED system is a great way to develop some standard landmarks on the fretboard that you can relate various scale patterns to.
Last edited by Goofsus4; 07-27-2008 at 08:21 PM.
-
goofsus - I already know my scales and chords quite well but I am always looking for a new way to teach and comprehend for myself.
I just googled CAGED system and I find the diagrams confusing. I'm probably already using this idea but I wonder if it could be explained or diagrammed better??
Sailor
-
Your original two questions pretty much exemplify one of the hardest stumbling blocks for a guitarist to get over.
CAJO definitely gave you the best way to learn the major scale. As for your question regarding the modes, it's extremely important that you don't confuse modes and patterns. The modes are the same seven note scale with a different starting note.
In C...
CDEFGABC
DEFGABCD
EFGABCDE... etc... You get the idea
Now when you start learning your major scale you're going to learn seven different patterns like CAJO said. Each one will start from a different note from the scale. This doesn't mean that they're all completely different scales. If you're playing over a Cmajor chord and you're playing in the position at the eighth fret, and you switch to a G7 chord... you don't have switch hand positions. Each one of these patterns contains the same eight notes. The modes are simply groups of eight notes that can be found in dozens of different places all across the neck... not just 6 string box patterns.
I know this can be an extremely confusing concept when you're new to it, but start by doing exactly as CAJO said and learn the major scale in all seven patterns and then if you're having trouble using them, get back to me and I'll be glad to talk you through it in a little more depth.
-
Originally Posted by Sailor
CAGED systems kind of cool. All that means is that you're chords fall in a specific pattern every single time. It refers to them by comparing them to open chords. It means that if you take a chord (say a Cmaj), you'll find it first in a "C-shape", in this case it falls in the open position. Next you'll find an "A-shape" C chord, in this case it falls on the third fret. After that you'll find a G shape C chord, then an E shape, and then a D shape. Each of these shapes connects to the others. After you learn them, you'll notice that they each fall perfectly into one of the common major scale patterns. The C shape will fall in to your 6th string Phrygian pattern. The A shape will fall in your 6th string Myxolydian pattern. The G shape falls into your Aeolian, E into Ionian, and D into Dorian.
It's extremely helpful with linking arpeggios together and improvising using chord shapes. It helps you to memorize how five or six easy shapes for diatonic chords fall into the same scale pattern. It helped me out a lot.
-
Can you recommend a site that shows all 7 patterns of the major scales?
I have the scale bible and it is wayyyyy complicated.....
m really trying to make a honest effort to get this down
just having trouble finding the right sources.....
much appreciated
-
I found this site just googling a bit.... it seems alright.
GuitarScales.nl - Guitar Scale Dictionary, scales, guitar, guitarra, gitar, gitarra
I recommend you get some material on music theory. I was recommended the jazz theory book by mark levine. It's very good; it explains all of these questions you ask.
No matter what some of the others say I recommend you learn some patterns and study the theory on the same time. I remember how difficult it was when all I wanted to learn was some scales, and everybody told me a bunch of formulas and so on. There's nothing wrong with learning the patterns of the seven modes at first. This way you're getting started, learning the names, maybe the intervals. But of course.... you NEED to understand the theory of modes and how scales are build. I think you'll discover that yourself... it seems easy to learn some patterns, but to use these "patterns" in a musical way you need to understand why every particular patterns is arranged the way it is....
-
I think part of the problem is that there are so many approaches to learning the same thing. If you go out and buy seven books on the seven modes, you will find seven different explanations. They will all be correct, but as you can see just from the responses you've had, everyone has a slightly different approach to it. I remember when I first started learning the modes of the major scale I had to read the article (in Guitar Player) about ten times before I got a handle on what they were on about. But maybe I'm just slow (
).
You just have to persevere and just pick a system of learning and don't give up.
-
Yup... that's definitely one of the coolest things about music, but if you're trying to teach yourself, then it's one of the most frustrating.
The site that CAJO gave you looks good. Just notice that when you enter in C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, etc.. you're looking at the same thing.
I found another decent site. This one uses the CAGED system. This way with this site and the one that CAJO showed you can see how they can all be seperate modes and how they're all part of the same "major scale".
Cyberfret.com: Major scale: CAGED scale systemLast edited by DMatthewsBand07; 07-28-2008 at 07:46 AM.
-
Also I sort of assumed that you had looked at the lessons on this site, but if you haven't, Dirk's lessons on this site are all great. His lesson on the major scale gives you only one pattern but it does an awesome job of explaining the theory behind the major scale and the concept of modes.
http://www.jazzguitar.be/music-theory.html
-
I was responding to the original poster's questions/comments. Originally Posted by Sailor
But, with regard to the CAGED system, this link explains the basic concept:
Cyberfret.com: Major scale: CAGED scale system
It's really just about using five standard major scale triad grips along the neck of the guitar in standard tuning that you can use as landmarks to quickly find where you are. At least, that's how I use it. Even if you have a minor chord, you can still use it because the roots are still in these CAGED locations, even if the third is now flatted. I have other chords that I use as landmarks too, but I still use the CAGED system as a backbone for basic fretboard navigation.
-
Here is something that will really accelerate your learning: create the scale pattern yourself by identifying each interval. Take a sheet of graph paper (or an Excel worksheet - that's what I use) and construct a map of the fretboard. Then, pick any root (C for instance) and write (or type) in any beginning position for this note on your fretboard map (you could use 6th string bass, 8th fret for instance). Now, from there, identify and type in every interval of the major scale, i.e. every instance of the 1 (root), 2,3,4,5,6,and 7th. When you've completed this for every interval related to the root of C (using the major scale formula) then you will have a map of then entire major scale in every possible position on the fretboard. Originally Posted by leeislearning
You can do this for ANY scale. All you have to do is learn the specific intervallic formula for that scale or mode and then apply the above process to create a fretboard map for that scale or mode. For instance, if you want to see a complete map of Dorian mode, then you just pick a root then find all the instances of the 1(root), 2,b3,4,5,6,b7 along the fretboard. Presto - you have a complete Dorian scale. You can do that for the minor melodic, the superlocrian, major and minor pentatonic, you name it.
Then, after you've done that, go back and identify where all the standard chord inversions lie within that map for a chord associated with that scale - say for C major, go back and identify where all the intervals (chord tones) of a C major 7 chord are on that map.
You can call the 2,4, and 6 and 9,11, and 13 if you want - it doesn't matter, it's the same thing just an octave up. I just keep it simple when I am making these maps and think in terms of one octave intervals.
-
Yea that's a good idea. Why don't you identify the intervals for each of the modes and then decide what kind of scale it is (major, minor, diminished, dominant, etc.) and then post it for us and we'll check it for you. It can be explained but it sounds A LOT more complicated unless you've got someone there with you with a guitar and a piece of paper. So why don't you try and figure out the intervals and stuff. Do it for C first since there's no sharps and flats. Figure out the patterns on your own starting from each of the seven notes in the scale, and as you figure one out, see if you can name the intervals and figure out the scale quality. then post it.
-
I've was given this advice too, and for me it didn't work. I was in a situation where I didn't really understand the theory, and I was given some patterns by my teacher, and he said when I got it initialized, we would work out the theory stuff. But from then on I was on my own. When you get the point on how the major scale is build, the rest is much easier to understand, and then you work out your own fingerings and so on.
It's your decision, but my advice is that unless your on top of this theory stuff, then you shouldn't try and get hold of it yourself while you learn where to put your fingers. I learned it the way I already explained, and sometimes it's just hard memorization. Afterwards you can study much better, because you don't need to watch the guitar: you got a print of the scales in your mind.
But again, it's you not me. The above posts are all great advice, and I think you should some of this advice and see what fits you.Last edited by C.A.JO.; 07-28-2008 at 11:56 AM.
-
That's a good point. But I was trying to show him a way to work out some of the theory stuff as he went a long. It's really hard though to show someone this stuff when you can't, literally, show them. You do make a good point though so this is now a question for leeislearning. Do you have a firm handle on chord theory? If you do then my suggestion will probably work well for you, because you'll know what to look for. If the music theory, and chord theory in particular, are totally new to you, then CAJO might be right.
My teacher used this kind of approach with me, but when I started learning the modes, I already had a pretty solid knowledge of my pentatonics, chord theory, and the circle of fifths (sharps and flats in different keys and all that). So this approach was really beneficial to me. Again, if you're not very familiar with music theory then check out CAJO's approach and focus on that. Either way the CAGED system is great so I'd familiarize your self with that no matter what you decide to do.
For me though, it was always really important to figure out exactly what, musically, I was doing when I learned a pattern.Last edited by DMatthewsBand07; 07-28-2008 at 12:42 PM.
-
Yes, I agree. When I first started improvising, I just used patterns and didn't know why I was playing them, what the notes were, or the intervals. I just knew where the roots were basically. I did well with that approach, but I knew I was just playing by ear. If you just want to play by ear, then patterns and experimentation are all you need. But if you want to start songwriting, composing, harmonizing melodies, etc. you have to know that these notes mean, what intervals they represents, and how they go together musically. Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
I found that once I began contructing these scale maps myself that the theory often became self-evident. Then what I read started to click.
-
Hey DMatthewsBand07, I'm confusing too with modes, scales pattern a.s.o. I compile a spreadsheet (see attachement) with just two example, becouse the rest slide 3 freet up and I get the next one.
My question, if I had understand all the mistery of the jazz theory:
In my first example I write C major and the 7 (5) modes of his scala, now if I slide 3 freet up I get D major and the 7 (5) modes of his scala and so on.
But now if play the C major scala on the 10th freet Root D, I play all the time C major but D-Dorian and on this way I built the Chord of the major scala.
R I G H T ???? I get it ?????
Thanks Antonio
-
Originally Posted by mazza24
I kind of think that you might be on the right track but to be honest I don't entirely understand the question. Can you try and reword it for me?
Also if you slide all the Cmaj patterns up 2 FRETS then you get Dmaj.
Reply With Quote
Peter Sprague & Leonard Patton "Can't Find My Way...
Today, 07:47 PM in The Songs