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Hey Reg,
I think you know I'm just discussing this and your definition doesn't upset me at all. It's just an interesting discussion.
I dig your playing, but more than that I dig your generosity and desire to include and help so many of us out. And that is something that I hope rubs off on me... well to be honest I hope some of your playing rubs off too.
As morroben said, we all just want to be part of the club.
Someone asks, "what kind of musician are you". I answer, "I dig jazz daddy o".
I'm in the 'I dig jazz daddy o' club.
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10-10-2011 07:23 PM
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Right on Brother!!
Originally Posted by fep
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Yea...we're all part of that clan...
Do you guys or gals hear the difference between playing in a jazz style of reference as compared to traditional...I hate to use the term, but straight. Somewhat like when we say on the west coast, that players got the grease or dirt on east coast, from different funk band references of years ago. Just curious...
Another harmonic detail... I never really heard use of Harmonic minor as default source of reference... even back in the 60's and 70's when we played Old show etc... standards, we always changed the harmonic scheme, either added the #9 or used the WT and Dim. alterations, (modal interchange). When we played straight gigs etc... we played the tunes and charts, if they were around, as written, but when we could play... never straight... Reg
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To tell you the truth Reg, you are the only person I have ever heard declare that modal interchange is THE fundamental concept to master before you can "play in a jazz way". I mean there are plenty of outstanding players who can access these sounds by using concepts that are totally different, and heaven forbid routed in traditional theory.
Let's face it, concepts are a dime a dozen these days, if you can't hear the #9, b9, or any outside tone in it's context then these complex theoretical concepts won't help much.
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Yea... your probable right... MI...one of many fundamentals. I get a lot of shit from my bros at gigs... but what saves me is... I can already play, I have good technique, ears, read anything and can make anything groove... can run and direct rhythm sections or any ensemble, explain what's going on in any chart or whatever's required on the spot... I'm not a closet musicologist. Sorry about soap box... Part of my problem is I use to compose/arrange... it really helped me to understand what was going on musically.
And sure... all this BS is simply an academic exercise... but most aren't aware of many concepts at the first level of relationships... why should they be.... any answer is only a click away.
Most pros have some traditional ed. and have studied with someone... have a method of understanding and build from and develop their vocabulary. An on going process... one small detail is they've put in the time and they play, which is also a skill.
So anyway what are these sounds... how would you explain... what are these traditional theory sourced concepts... that breakdown playing in a jazz style. I'm very comfortable with traditional theory, harmony and melodic style...I have copies of everything... I'm not trying to put you on the spot, really, I can already cover. Your right, concepts are a dime a dozen...but so are lousy players. That's why I'm on this forum... make guitar players better musicians. When you breakdown these... as you called complex theoretical concepts down to the somewhat simple parts... their not that difficult. I'm simply making an attempt to explain... To help players understand the many contexts... Pick a tune... and lets break it down with an example....maybe should be different thread, or not... Disclaimer... if I'm rubbing anyone wrong... I apologize up front... sometimes you need to spark to get things going...Reg
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I recognize that you are fine player Reg ... No doubt better than I could hope to be in my lifetime, so no need to reiterate your credentials.
I have also read all your posts on modal interchange with great interest but I admit I can't make heads or tails out of it. Your explanations are very fragmented. You seem to only allude to the concept in cryptic ways. Maybe i just dont know enough to see through it but, What bits I do grasp only lead me to shrugging my shoulders because there are other more direct ways of conceiving the same sounds.
I don't mean to discredit your approach because your playing speaks for itself and it it obviously working for you. Also, I certainly am not a pro (nor do i wishh to be) ... I am just a guy who plays jazz guitar because I like it. I have no interest in belonging to any secret society ...
So my only suggestion is ... if you insist on advocating this concept as the path to playing in a jazz way, then you might consider being much more clear with the explanation, or maybe write book. Maybe even open a thread called Reg's modal interchange where you could peel it back in a logical way ...
That would alleviate allot of WTF that I'm sure exists on the forum.... Or maybe it's just me on that one.
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I love looking at things in as many ways as possible. That is how I learn and internalize. If we do not challenge ideas how are we to except anything? I never except anything at face value. I will always put it to use in my own way to validate it and therefore my understanding and acceptance of it. This process by no means makes me a great player but it does make me a better listener, thinker, as well as player.
Bring it on. I love to see other peoples ideas and put them to the test.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 10-11-2011 at 06:40 PM.
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Reg does get esoteric. That is why you need to search for the pearls. But they are usually there. Often I explore the boundaries of what I understand and ask a lot of questions about things I do not, whether it be google or more often than not other players and teachers in this forum. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
With that being said, it would be nice to see the ideas laid out in a step by step logical system that anyone can grasp, if they try of course, and use without wondering WTF was that. On the other hand, it is at the writers pleasure and discretion, as to what he/she divulges. So far there is nothing that is going on that I have not found an answer to, one way or the other, that disallows me to test and validate these ideas. Of course my understanding grows daily/weekly/ monthly etc...Last edited by brwnhornet59; 10-12-2011 at 12:11 PM.
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Sorry, Reg, but tracks or not, I'm playing jazz guitar on my gigs. I'm not interested in trying to fit into someone else's definition. What I play cannot be played by anyone not steeped in jazz. I'm more than a little tired of the pigeon-holing and rule-making of purists. If I'm not playing jazz, then neither is Benson.
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@ brwnhornet ... I definitely agree .. I learn great stuff by trying to apply different perspectives. But any valuable concept must actually make things easier to apply. I'm sure that there are pearls in the MI ideas but so far I dont see the value. Having said that, a concept is only accessible when you are ready for it. In other words, you have all the raw material to put it together ... maybe I'm missing something.
I recently had lunch with a good friend who is a very sought after jazz guitar player. We talked about different concepts of different musicians (all instuments) that he played with over a beer and wings. It has become very apparent that all jazz musician develop their own concepts, some esoteric, some not so ... that is in fact part of the whole journey to connecting yourself to the instrument. If you are not willing develop your own concept then you will not be able to assess the value of others with respect to your own sound.
In short ... Everyone's concept is valuable to their playing, the only arbitrator is the listener. God help you if your audience is other musicians.
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Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
God help you if your audience is other musicians.
LOL.... With Jazz it usually is the whole audience!!!
Sad but true.
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For those that depend on music for income, I sympathize that you gotta do what you gotta do, in the current state that music is in. If jobs were plentiful and the pay was equitable, how many folks would use real musicians instead of backing tracks? This really is the real problem isn't it? If you could go home with the same amount of loot in your pocket after paying a rhythm section to back you, would anyone still use backing tracks?
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All true...I guess, like I said... who cares...basically there are no consequences. So if we simply use the terms, Modal interchange or borrowing as a way to help organize changing chords, like making the VI chord of a I, VI, II, V into a VI7#9, or in a simple Imaj7, G-7 C7, change the II-7 V7 into a II-7b5 V7#9, (whatever version of altered II V you like).
If we think of a scale or mode pattern, the spacing between the notes, C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C in steps...1,1,1/2,1,1,1,1/2 Ionian
D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D in steps...1,1/2,1,1,1,1/2,1 Dorian
E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E in steps....1/2,1,1,1,1/2,1,1 Phrygian
anyway keep going, you'll end up with a collection of patterns which represent each scale, you can continue this process with all scales.
If you think of these scale patterns as templates, little cut outs that represent each scale. (so really you simply do this in your head). Now you already understand one of those templates... the Diatonic one, as in my first example of I,VI,II,V... we use the Maj or Ionian template and the diatonic chords would be in key of "C", Cmaj7, A-7(aeolian), D-7(Dorian), G7(mixo).
Now lets use the relative minor or The Aeolian template( 6th degree), termed parallel Min.
Our chord progression becomes...
C-7(aeolian), Abma7(Lydian), D-7b5(locrian), G-7(Phrygian)
Now we can continue with all our templates and come up with pretty much... any type of chord on any root we want... the trick is making it sound "good", right... what I've realized and have been taught over the years... our ears change... what we believe sounds "good" can change. There are lots of reasons... besides context... anyway what generally continues to sound "good", are the use of methods... of organizing which applications,(which template), we use. Can be as simple as simply using same template,(modal interchange), and only a few of the new chords available from that template. Most simply use what's typical and don't worry about source... who cares, if it works... use it. If your ears change and you hear a different version of same chord,(VI-7 becoming VI7 becoming VI7#9, becoming VI7#11...whatever), Go with it.
What you'll find is that in different harmonic situations...( different chord patterns, or different types of chords), different versions or types of chords work better... sound "good".
What becomes a little more difficult is when you begin to mix and combine... your use of these templates... which is typically how most jazz players use playing or composing. Like in example of the I, VI, II,V and using the aeolian template.. not many use standard Phrygian minor chord for a V chord, usually we use, as Levine pointed out in his book, use Susb9 chord or 2nd degree chord from Melodic Min., also a susb9 chord or drop a different Template and come up with a altered version or V7 chord.
Again what usually end up sounding "Good", and continues to sound that way... is when we use a method, system, trial and error, something to help organize our use of Modal interchange or Borrowed chords...
Now if we begin to try and define which templates are more in a jazz style... generally there are a few more characteristics that would influence which templates we chose to call... in a jazz style.
I'll try and get into another characteristic later...
Good point Cosmic... also brings up another characteristic of playing Jazz...Reg
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Hey Reg, the template analogy is perfect. It made sense and was easy to follow.
I use these templates all of the time, as we all do.
I always look at the source that I am drawing from when interchanging templates in whole or in part. The harmonic ramifications are what give us the meat to bite into for soloing. It also keeps the band wagon going smoothly as we plunge further down the rabbit hole of layered M I.
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Old thread, but anyway,
I finally jumped on the backing tracks bandwagon. I have to make them myself for the most part to get a feel for the song. I start with a GM file and change everything. I just want the song form basically. I guess I'm trying to do what I would expect of others- it should sound like you really worked at both the track and whatever it is you're playing over it.
It's seem to take me forever to do one song. I know it's just me but I'm turned off by a track that sounds too real. It should sound fake in a good way.
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Better late than never I suppose. Love it, hate it, or somewhere in between, you may fire when ready, Mr. Worf. Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
I look forward to Hearing it Eight!!!
Bear in mind when you're firing the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, I've only been playing jazz a little over 3 years.
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That you singing? Nice job! I caved recently and started singing again. Originally Posted by EightString
Better late than never I suppose. Love it, hate it, or somewhere in between, you may fire when ready, Mr. Worf.
Bear in mind when you're firing the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, I've only been playing jazz a little over 3 years.
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Yes that is me singing, so thank you. Originally Posted by Stevebol
While I do get gigs as a guitarist, I tend to think of myself as a singer who plays guitar, not the other way around.
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