My improvising sounds like scales

[bachplay6]

I still have this problem with blues as well. My improvising sounds too scalish. What can I practice to lose this, especially with respect to jazz guitar, which I'm new to this game. Please tell me if some of you had to overcome this as well.

Thanks

[Billnc]

I still have this problem with blues as well. My improvising sounds too scalish. What can I practice to lose this, especially with respect to jazz guitar, which I'm new to this game. Please tell me if some of you had to overcome this as well.

Thanks

I got this simple little exercise from Mick Goodrick. Stay on one string in position and play only chord tones, yes sometimes you will have only one note. Then add a string until you've covered all six strings.

Next add an approach from half step below. After that a scale tone above to the chord tone, and yes there will be an occasional choice to be made. Finally approach the chord tones by enclosure scale tone above, 1/2 step below and finally landing on the chord tone.

[Stackabones]

Start learning melodies and use them to base your improv on.

[bachplay6]

thanks Billnc. I will try this. I feel like my playing can be compared to a 1st grader saying his ABC's instead of making intelligent sentences.

[mr. beaumont]

If I ask you the question, "how are you addressing the chord changes?" what is your answer?

[bachplay6]

I should have explained this in my first post. I am coming from mostly blues and rock jams in which one can use the song key and play one pentatonic minor and major scales throughout the song. Even in this simple format, I have some "canned" licks stolen from others that sound good, but when I allow my fingers to be free, it sounds more like practicing scales. So my answer to your question would be that I try to land on certain notes as we progress through the I, IV, V progression. I suppose what I am saying is that I'm unhappy with my phrasing.
BTW mr. beaumont I listened to your tracks and I'm wondering when you are coming to a collesium near me! Dude, where did you learn like that? You must have started very early. Did you have an ES-335 in the womb with you?
Thanks

[beasleybubba]

Study arpeggios! Outline the chord changes and focus on nailing the guide tones (3s and 7s) on strong beats, especially on the instant a chord change occurs (usually on beat 1 or 3 of a bar).

Check out Mimi Fox's book "Guitar Arpeggio Studies on Jazz Standards" it's inexpensive and chock full of wisdom.

[mr. beaumont]

I should have explained this in my first post. I am coming from mostly blues and rock jams in which one can use the song key and play pentatonic minor and major scales throughout the song. Even in this simple format, I have some "canned" licks stolen from others that sound good, but when I allow my fingers to be free, it sounds more like practicing scales. So my answer to your question would be that I try to land on certain notes as we progress through the I, IV, V progression. I suppose what I am saying is that I'm unhappy with my phrasing.
BTW mr. beaumont I listened to your tracks and I'm wondering when you are coming to a collesium near me! Dude, where did you learn like that? You must have started very early. Did you have an ES-335 in the womb with you?
Thanks

It was a Super 400, actually. My mother has not forgiven me.

I ask that question, because to sound "jazzy" you need to play the notes that are going to give you the "character" of the chord you're passing through (when you're really cooking, that is, you want to balance that with more "melodic" stuff)

This is why a lot of folks, myself included, will definitely tell you to check out arpeggios (don't think Yngwie Malmsteen sweeps here, we mean the notes in the chord itself) as a jumping off place for improvising.

It takes a while before you can think melodically in a way that automatically hits these important tones as well as creates a memorable line, but limiting the information you have available is great for starting out with jazz. All the above exercises are good, as well as simply playing through the song and playing one note on each chord. Go through and always play the third. Then do it again with the seventh. Then play two notes per chord and play the third and seventh--those are the most important notes of any chord and they will give you the "quality" of the chord at hand.

Thanks for the nice compliments--hang around here, you'll learn a bunch...I've been playing for 20 years, with about 10 years of jazz under my belt--we got guys here with 2 and 3 times that at least! The collective knowledge here is an awesome thing.

[Billnc]

Start learning melodies and use them to base your improv on.

One of the things I did with a melody is if it's over a D minor, you can play that lick over a G7 or F major or Bb major. Figure out all the different uses and play that one lick through the changes. Requires quite a bit of transcribing sometimes.

I revisit all the previous exercises explained here, periodically, as a tune up, Even Mr Beaumont's one note per chord stuff.

[lindydanny]

I'll second the arpeggios. I've found the same problem and doing arps has helped a lot.

Another ideal would be to work on pentatonics. The intervals on those scales is such that they don't sound like scales. I use the so called blues boxes a lot when playing rock or folk music and I've dabbled with them in jazz occasionally.

~DB

[Stringbean]

A well articulated scale can sound very musical, imho.

[sc06yl]

Turning scales and arpeggios and other aspects of theory into music is super difficult. In fact, I think it is safe to say that it is what most jazz players struggle with most, I know it is what I struggle with. Try listening to players like Jim Hall, Ed Bickert, Bill Evans, and hear how, particularly in Ed's case, nothing he plays is that musically complicated in the grand scheme of jazz theory, but the effort involved of choosing the 'right' notes, at the 'right' time, in perfect time, makes his ideas pretty difficult to execute the way he does.

I like to think in terms of melody, and melody is basically a function of rest and motion, and tension and release. A pretty broad concept, yes, and a little bit difficult to explain in great detail, but do some heavy duty active listening to some great players, or even do some analysis of classical music and it will make sense.

If you think of a solo as a composition, which it essentially is, start with a little melodic phrase, it can be simple, and try and build off it, quote it often, augment and diminish it (with respect to time), if you think this way, its harder to get into the rut of playing up and down chord scales or arpeggios. It also gives your solo a sense of continuity and forethought, and while might not be technically impressive, it is a lot more musical than blowing up and down scales, in my opinion.

I have also found it useful to play scales as triads, and using there relation to solo over changes, all the triads of the major scale can be categorized as either tonic, dominant or sub-dominant, and as a result you can use this relation to create some more open sounding lines. I find it particularly effective method to blow over Rhythm Changes, especially the A sections. I believe there is a page or section in Mark Levine's book about it. If you don't have it, you should get it.

[ozone]

I have the same problem. My improvisations often times sound scalley.
A simple thing that I've do is ,for example, I will practice 3, 5 note squences and move them around the key. And also intervallic patterns help me out too. Although those can sound scalley too, it might open up some new melodic ideas. I'm new to jazz improv also. It's very challenging to jam in the jazz style, well for me too anyways. Oh yeah, I try not to play fast.

[wolflen]

I still have this problem with blues as well. My improvising sounds too scalish. What can I practice to lose this, especially with respect to jazz guitar, which I'm new to this game. Please tell me if some of you had to overcome this as well.

Thanks

a very common problem with improv...

we play what we know..if your comfort zone is playing scales..that is what you will fall back on..

you need to develop within the scale...target scale tones say the 3rd.. now begin an arpeggio from there...then play the scale when you hit the 3rd-arpeggio the rest of the scale..3 5 7 9...(key of C example E G B D..from here play a Dmi7 arpeggio D FA C - now try playing the C scale in thirds up to the G note...

break the familiar pattern with new patterns that are within the scale..do some wide interval jumps C on the 6th string A on the 2nd string now descend to G on the 5th string and do a G7 arpeggio from there..

this kind of thinking will take some time to incorporate in your playing...there are alot of exercises in books and on the net...do some research..

go slow with this ... it will sink in..and of course when you get comfortable with an exercise move it to all sets of strings and then to all keys...

adding simple melodies in this type of study helps alot...just play a motif from london bridge or jingle bells or any beatles tune then run some of you scale exercises around it...before it...after it...

all of these are just ideas to break away from just playing a scale that you already know

play well

wolf

[MortenFaerestrand]

I still have this problem with blues as well. My improvising sounds too scalish. What can I practice to lose this, especially with respect to jazz guitar, which I'm new to this game. Please tell me if some of you had to overcome this as well.

Thanks

If you practice a lot playing scales up and down, your improvising may sound to scalish.

If you practice a lot of arpeggios up and down, your playing might sound like that.

If you practice a lot of theoretical concepts, well, you get the picture..

If you practice actual music, you might eventually sound like your playing actual music..

So the answer to your question, in my experience, practice all of the above, by all means, but more importantly: Transcribe transcribe transcribe!

[lindydanny]

...while might not be technically impressive, it is a lot more musical than blowing up and down scales, in my opinion.

One of my pet peeves is players of any instrument who loose there musicality to technical prowess. I don't really care that you can do minor 5ths on the entire neck is three seconds flat. Especially when you didn't hear the key change.

I see a lot of players in almost every genre who fall victim to this.

~DB

[bako]

That which makes something musical is not contingent only on the raw material. It starts with our energy and commitment to an idea and developing it. Rhythm is often the key element. I recently saw an incredible 5 minute+ solo by a Venezuelan maraca player.
(the maraca makes only one sound)

[randalljazz]

aren't any minor 5ths...

[whatswisdom]

I don't really care that you can do minor 5ths on the entire neck is three seconds flat.

???

[the*doctor]

As well as arpeggios, my teacher reccomended practicing all of your scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths. Not only is it good practice, but it's interesting ideas for improv as well

[colduc]

What are you doing with your phrasing? Phrasing is a very natural part of our musical wiring, but when we get caught up in scales, arpeggios. etc. it's very easy to forget about phrasing and our playing sounds like a million run-on sentences that never go anywhere (though you probably played the scales/arps. right on the money!). Guitarists commonly forget about phrasing for a variety of reasons.

First, find places where you see natural breaks (i.e. phrases) in the song structure. Usually these are the same places where the original melody rests, or hold onto one note for a long time. Also those phrases are often groups of 2 bars, 4 bars and, in some faster tunes, 8 bars. Lots of the time, people organize 12 bar blues into 3 groups of 4 phrases (just like the verse structure).

Now that you've split the tune into phrases, you have definite beginning and end points for the different parts of your solo. While the beginning of your phrase is important, players new to learning phrasing need more focus on the end of the phrase. You always want to end your phrase on a place that sounds like you really, really meant to end there. Usually that's a stable chord tone of the chord you're ending your phrase on. So if you have A7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 as your 4 bar progression, the most obvious place to end your phrase would be one of the chord tones from the Cmaj7: C E G or B. There are other possible notes to work through, but leave it at the given chord tones for now. Make sure you discipline yourself enough to really end on that final note, a lot of us have a habit to ramble a bit where a phrase would have sounded much stronger if we had simply stopped playing.

Practice phrasing like that and you'll notice a much greater sense of direction in your playing, even if you're just working around the basic scales of a song. Hope that helps, there's a lot more to discuss in this topic, but that should cover the basics of it.