Tunes, Scales, or Licks?

[JonnyPac]

No teacher is anti-head. That's not the OP point, I was making. JGR has valid views and is just being honest about the role of guitar in jazz. We tend to go guitar-centric here because it's a guitar forum. Jazz is predominantly horn and piano based music that relies on bass and drums for the rhythm section, etc. Guitar jazz is somewhat a minority in jazz history and has a corner to itself in many cases. Joe Pass playing full tunes solo, is NOT your average jazz, as nice as it is.

The point I was really hitting on is the content of a fake book chart lacks a TON of information. A sketch melody and chicken-scratch half-wrong chord symbols cannot teach a beginner jazz whatsoever. It takes experienced musicians to bring the chart to life. There is more to be learned by listening, imitating recordings, and studying written transcriptions.

Also keep in mind, the this tread is directed to advise those already armed with raw scales and basic theory.

[Kman]

There is a difference between talking about playing jazz or improvising and actually playing... many times you can talk yourself into thinking you have it all together and then... you have to play... not just the easy stuff and not just one tune...not just the music you've already played... what your comfortable with...but new, at least to you... now what do you do... Some players can play... some players can talk about playing... it's a fairly simple choice...
Hey Jazzpunk... NO, I can't... maybe there is a reason.

Many people on this forum can play and talk. I've heard a lot of tracks from people and a lot of it is good. I've been playing Jazz for twenty years, but I don't ever think I have it all together. I'm not not sure what your saying exactly.

[Jazzpunk]

Shouldn't think there are any. I'm not advocating it either, I'm talking about priorities, and saying the tune is primordial for a guitarist seems upside down to me, it's the last thing he needs to take into account. Drummers don't need to know the tune, they need to know when to do the sting, or cut for a couple of bars or whatever. This is because drummers don't play melody instruments (but now that I think of it, most of the drummers I've known have been much better readers than the guitarists). Neither do guitarists, really. I have a sneaking suspicion that the problem is that lots of people here feel that the guitarist should be the most important element in a band, which is not generally the case.

Sounds like you don't know much about jazz musicians! A lot of prominent jazz drummers play other instruments. The greats all understand that having a complete sense of the music will help them do their jobs that much better.

The notion that one should not learn the melodies to tunes is so absurd that I can't even take it seriously enough to go back and forth about it lol.

This forum is a hoot!

[JonnyPac]

This forum is a hoot!

Seriously. You guys have been a blast to chat with this week. Thanks for all the great posts. I'm always pretty apprehensive about this forum... Group hugs.

[Jazzpunk]

No teacher is anti-head. That's not the OP point, I was making. JGR has valid views and is just being honest about the role of guitar in jazz. We tend to go guitar-centric here because it's a guitar forum. Jazz is predominantly horn and piano based music that relies on bass and drums for the rhythm section, etc. Guitar jazz is somewhat a minority in jazz history and has a corner to itself in many cases. Joe Pass playing full tunes solo, is NOT your average jazz, as nice as it is.

The point I was really hitting on is the content of a fake book chart lacks a TON of information. A sketch melody and chicken-scratch half-wrong chord symbols cannot teach a beginner jazz whatsoever. It takes experienced musicians to bring the chart to life. There is more to be learned by listening, imitating recordings, and studying written transcriptions.

Also keep in mind, the this tread is directed to advise those already armed with raw scales and basic theory.

My apologies for following those who have taken this thread off topic.

My point was that even if you're role is to comp all night, you should still learn the melodies to jazz standards if you wish to be a well rounded musician.

If you aspire only to comp behind others you're entire life than I guess you can get away with never learning a melody but you're still missing out on becoming a well rounded musician. You're also missing out on learning what makes the great tunes so great!

Every prominent modern jazz guitarist can comp, solo and play melodies. You won't find a single one of them stating that learning the heads to tunes is pointless (if you do, please provide a link!).

Thoroughly learning a tune makes one a better musician. That's just my opinion but I'm stickin' to it lol.

[Kman]

My point was that even if you're role is to comp all night, you should still learn the melodies to the tunes if you wish to be a well rounded musician.

Are you talking about memorizing the melody? I mostly read the melodies. I've been reading for many years so I don't neccessarily need to memorize them. If it's a difficult melody I may take five minutes going over it but I am just reading it. What do you mean by learning the melody?

[Jazzpunk]

Are you talking about memorizing the melody? I mostly read the melodies. I've been reading for many years so I don't neccessarily need to memorize them. If it's a difficult melody I may take five minutes going over it but I am just reading it. What do you mean by learning the melody?

I'm not making a point about one specific gig in which you may not be expected to play the heads of the tunes, I'm talking about the general education involved in becoming a well rounded jazz musician.

I've never once read that aspiring jazz guitarists should not learn the heads and melodies of tunes until now. Again, if anyone has links to prominent guitarists/educators who advocate this position, I'd be happy to read them!

What do you mean by learning the melody?

Please re-read the thread so you can view my statements in the proper context. They are a direct response to the notion that learning heads/melodies to jazz tunes should be low on one's list of priorities or ignored altogether.

I'm happy to be enlightened if I'm off base on this one but so far there is just one member who is making this case. Any one else?

[Jazzpunk]

The point I was really hitting on is the content of a fake book chart lacks a TON of information. A sketch melody and chicken-scratch half-wrong chord symbols cannot teach a beginner jazz whatsoever. It takes experienced musicians to bring the chart to life. There is more to be learned by listening, imitating recordings, and studying written transcriptions.

I agree with this 100% (though keep in mind I'm still a jazz newbie!). I even pointed out that Mr. Levine states this same thing in your anti Levine thread but I noticed that not a single person commented on it lol.

I have been taught that transcribing the head/melody is of equal importance to transcribing the solos but hey, maybe I've been taught wrong. Guess it depends on one's goals as a musician.

[Jazzpunk]

Many people on this forum can play and talk. I've heard a lot of tracks from people and a lot of it is good. I've been playing Jazz for twenty years, but I don't ever think I have it all together. I'm not not sure what your saying exactly.

I believe Reg is referring to those among us who argue obsessively but never post examples of their playing. He makes a good point and it is duly noted lol.

On that note, I think I'll go practice!

[Kman]

Please re-read the thread so you can view my statements in the proper context. They are a direct response to the notion that learning heads/melodies to jazz tunes should be low on one's list of priorities or ignored altogether.

I just read the melody so it is a low priority for me. For someone who cannot read, yes you are correct. They need to memorize the melody. Very important.

[JonnyPac]

Don't get me wrong, I love a good head melody. I also see the value for composing and arranging original material. Studying how Stella's line goes from extension to extension is very enlightening, etc. There is a lot of good stuuf to be learned.

Now imagine this... the average band geek in high school can read pretty good. They can read the heads all day long, but they don't usually solo well whatsoever. It takes study of the internal components and harmonic relationships to learn something besides mechanical delivery of written material. You have to get into the "why" not just the "how".

Solos contain elements like the melody, but it greater amounts. They were also played in real-time, so ultimately we can assume there is a system of thought that can produce quality solos on tap. In composition you can diddle with a single measure for 6 months; you can't solo that way.

[Jazzpunk]

To get back on topic, I think it is common knowledge among serious jazzers that transcribing is an essential element in one's development. As to why transcribing is not recommended more often in this forum, I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

I will say that when I've recommended it, the advice usually goes ignored. I assume this is because transcribing is part of the hard work that most do not want to do. It's much easier to keep searching for that magic scale or method book that will make you sound like 'jazz'.

I know I was guilty of putting this aspect of my education off as well but the gurus in my life emphasized it enough that I finally started to listen lol.