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Hi. I play with a trio (tenor sax, bass, guitar) every few weeks - just for fun, in the sax player's front room.
The sax plays the head, then a chorus or two of solos. Then he stops and looks expectantly at me! So I try and play a solo around the chords or melody, using just single notes. Then I play chords and the bassist has a go.
But what I've seen guitarists do (including my excellent teacher) in this situation, is to play a note solo, then a few chords, or even the odd stab, then back to the notes and so on. My teacher is trying to help with this, but he does it so instinctively!
Any tips on where to put chords? (Assuming, hopefully, I'll be in the right bar and not completely lost!).
Thanks
Dave
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02-25-2011 02:06 PM
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Good evening, Dave...
Sounds great, as it should be. Instructive fun...
Originally Posted by guitarhedgehog
Just to be clear, do you mean he plays nothing whilst you're 'soloing'? I would timidly suggest that he should be 'comping' (in sax manner, of course...), accommodating your solo. This could be the melody, or arpeggios of the chords; anything that provides some sort of 'skeleton' over which you're playing. Presumably the bass is still going..? Originally Posted by guitarhedgehog
You play what you can, of course, but there are many more techniques to solo playing than single notes. Not that it's wrong, at all, but using such 'tricks' as double stops, octaves, partial chords; indeed, even 'chordal solos' are just some ways to 'construct' a solo. If you have a couple of favourite numbers that you play regularly (preferably simpler ones...), listen to how some others interpret them, and try to emulate their licks, even partially or modestly. Originally Posted by guitarhedgehog
So much the better for him, but it's you the student, and he should (or even must...) be able to impart these skills to you, that's what teachers do, I thought..! Originally Posted by guitarhedgehog
The 'fun' bit is great, long may you continue. The 'improving your licks' part is up to you, with the help of a competent teacher. I hope that's what you have; perhaps you should go over your aims with him and establish a do-able programme..?
Hope this helps...
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Great suggestions from Douglas!
I'd only add that you don't need to solo on every tune, ya know? In that setting, you are the drummer and it could get worn-out if there were drum solos in every tune.
The world needs more rhythm men anyway.
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It sounds like you need to just keep working on your playing. If you have a decent sound through and the bass player is outlining the chords you shouldn’t feel the need to play chords just for the sake of playing chords. Just play a good solo. You can go back and forth between lines and chords. For example when the key center changes you can switch to some chordal playing to spice it up. Sometime when the key center changes in a song I will slide up and play thirds or move into octaves. But in general, if your sound is good then just playing a decent solo should be fine.
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What seems instinctive is usually the result of many years of hard work and fun. It's well within your reach to play this way. Originally Posted by guitarhedgehog
One practical tip would be to think of the scales and runs actually coming from the chords rather than the other way round.
Instead of dutifully working through the scales as a seperate exercise you could pick a tune, play the first chord then find the root and play through a scale or arpeggio that goes with that particular chord (e.g. chord is Dm9, play D Dorian. You don't have to start and finish on D of course.) Then do the same with the rest of the chords in the song. The more you do this, the more your mind will subconsciously associate this chord with that cluster of notes. After a while you will find youself interweaving chords into your solos instinctively.
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think of chords as punctuation to musical sentences.
don't overuse the exclamation points, and you can have space to, no need to tail sentences off like this...
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Double stops are a great idea. Chord 'stabs' make nice punctuations at key changes. (Not *only* there, but that's a good start.) Beats one and three are the most obvious places to play a chord during a solo (as well as on the "and" of four). Also, you can learn a few turnaround licks that outline the changes clearly (-simply) and play those in the right spots, maybe resolving on the chord of the target tone.
A lot of jazz's great cliches--which includes chord cliches (-hell, what good intro / ending is not a cliche?)--were created to fill a couple of measures of the I chord. Learn a few of those, change 'em up, mix single notes and chord splashes. It sounds cool, is fun to play, and the more you do it, the better you get at it.
This cannot be said enough: soloing is not 'making stuff up on the spot' but 'spontaneously reorganizing' stuff you know.
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Thanks for this amazing fast response everyone! Lots of helpful thoughts.
To clarify, yes, the bass player keeps going, and the sax also sometimes puts a backing in (eg as we move into a "B" part).
The point where the key centre changes I guess is a good point to 'mention' the "harmony" - eg if a ii-V pops up. My teacher also talked about adding chords where there are a couple of measures of the I chord. I hadn't even thought about using double stops as variety but I guess I do do this without thinking about it.
I also play in a couple of local bands (with occasional gigs) where there is more usually a blanket of harmony to solo over (keys, another guitar, or the front line doing a backing) but quite often even in these groups you only get drums and bass behind a solo. I sometimes do feel the audience needs a chordal reference to enjoy the notes.
And then there's the problem of finding new ideas over yet another blues in Bb - but thats for another thread!
Thanks again everyone. And yes enjoyment is the driver!
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I really like this way of thinking about it! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Thanks Nick - working on this! Originally Posted by Nick0783
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This is mostly how I play, as most of my gigs right now are either solo or a duet with a bass. When I do this, I use three approaches:
- Melodic lines punctuated with chords. This has already been discussed. The trick here is to leave space in your lines.
- Melodic lines that imply the chord changes enough that chords are not needed. This is somewhat difficult for a lot of modern players who are steeped in the "chord/scale" approach and play the "scale changes" instead of the "chord changes." In order to put this off, you need to really be thinking about chords and guide tones and how they resolve. You don't have to do this on every change, but getting at least some of them makes it sound like you know where the changes are.
- Chord solo. Obviously this eliminates the problem.
Peace,
Kevin
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Thank you for that neat summary, Kevin. Pardon the dumb question but by chord changes do you mean the notes within the chords that move when then next one comes (as opposed to playing notes from the related chord scale)?
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Chord changes or just changes, typically refers to chord progression. The chords that form the harmony of the song.
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Yes. Obviously, you cannot play every guide tone resolution or it will come out stilted Originally Posted by guitarhedgehog
Sorry, but I disagree with saponsky. "Playing the chord changes" used to mean "playing the notes that are changing from chord to chord and bringing out those lines." It is a fundamental part of bebop and was the main way to improvise until the late 50s. It has been a fundamental technique since the beginning of tonal music. Note that "changes" is the noun and "chord" is the adjective - you are playing what changes in relation to the chord. This idea of playing the scale that fits the chords and trusting that everything will work out is a relatively new concept, probably a result of the application of modal jazz theory to the rest of jazz as some kind of an improvisational panacea . If you went back to 1955 and told a bunch of jazz musicians that "playing the changes" meant playing the scale that fits the chord progression, they would fall off their chairs laughing. An examination of the playing and writing (what little there is) of these old school guys will show that those guys were not thinking that way.
Now, the chord/scale approach has obviously entrenched itself in the modern jazz sound. I just wish that people wouldn't label it as "playing the chord changes" - at best it is "playing the scale changes." But this is a rant that has gone on in many other threads.
Peace,
Kevin
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I keep posting this video, I guess I really like it.
The first two minutes are just guitar and then bass and guitar. And the way they are playing, the whole thing (except the trading 4s with the drummer) would work without the drummer.
Notice the interplay between the bass and guitar, sometimes sounding like counterpoint, notice the bass player playing the melody as accompainment at one part, notice how both 'play the changes.
These guys are great, but even still, us mortals can still get some ideas from them.
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Well, I like the responses all around. I am a chord-scale guy, but that does not stop me from playing harmonically specific guide tone outlines. It's all one if you handle it well enough. The dangers of unrefined CST are real, but easy enough to overcome by studying linear harmony, bop, or basic voice leading. If you can assume the bass will hit roots at a given time, your top line can imply the whole chord (or chord-scale) with choice target notes; extended harmony or vanilla...
I play with a piano-less group 99% of the time; usually my trio. Bass and drums. I am not a CM wizard, so I don't really play more than one thing at a time literally. I do play "compound melodies" a lot. I suggest two (or more) melodic lines within a single run. This idea might interest you.
I try to build my solos: single notes, octaves, and a few chords. Again, by chords and double stops are very chunky as opposed to most CM.
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Thanks again everyone for your helpful comments and illustrations; this is my first posting on here and I feel honoured by your attention!
I have a session with the sax and bass guys tomorrow so that will be another opportunity for my much-needed practice...
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