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"One tune to rule them all and in the darkness play them."
(With apologies to JRR Tolkein.)
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07-29-2024 01:05 PM
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Yes, that is what it's like, proverbially. That is why knowing how to play in any key is so important for a jazz musician. The ability to look at charts and analyze them quickly, being able to spot and navigate the cadences, where the key changes are, all that stuff is important for that.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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ATTYA has been mentioned a few times. I'ts a good choice, but one thing it doesn't have is any bona fide iim7-5 V action resolving to a tonic minMaj7 i chord. It has a lot of other good modulations to navigate, though.
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Not sure if it's been addressed, but part of the OP's question was asking that if there was not one tune that contained every food group, as it were, then could you write one?
So a tune to contain maj and min 2 5 1, secondary dominants (II, III, VI etc), altered dominants, diminished, half diminished, maybe a IV7, and maybe a min iv etc. What else?
FWIW, I agree that a Bird blues can cover much of the above...
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Food group? Originally Posted by princeplanet
Perhaps we should construct a harmonic version of the food pyramid to use as our guide? The most nutritious and least nutritious chords? Are there junk food chords?
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Haha!, You know there are! Originally Posted by Mick-7
Food group?
... Are there junk food chords?
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
Power chords? Originally Posted by princeplanet
Haha!, You know there are!
Actually I think it would be fun and maybe even useful to create a chord guide pyramid chart.
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Have a go, I'd like to see your take. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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For me, jazz is not 90% about the tune, its melody and chord structure. For me, the most inportant thing in jazz is its rhythm. If it is not there, it's not jazz to me, no matter the tune. Good jazz can be played on countless very different tunes. One may even - with tongue in cheek - say that the tune is just an excuse or alibi to play jazz. For that reason I don't think any tune can teach one 90% of all jazz - or 50% or 20% for that matter.
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I think I'll just revisit this thread slightly. Of course there's no 'one tune which will teach you 90% of all jazz' and that's probably settled. But I've been working on 'Autumn In New York' for a while and it's a real challenge. For me, anyway.
You wouldn't think so, it's just another standard, well known, slow pace, so what's the difficulty? Well, after doing it a hundred times and ditching about 99% of the efforts I can tell you it's no walk in the park.
Most vocal versions crawl along at a snail's pace but playing single string solos on it is troublesome because it drags. Do it too fast and it fails because that's not the tune. It has at least two chords per bar every bar and you have to cover those melodically.
It's easier doing it chord melody because it can be done rubato and you can take your time but I don't do chord melody. To do it single string you have to find a median rhythm, not too fast, not too slow, and that's tricky for some reason.
A fair number of instrumental players have recorded it and I haven't found one I really like yet. I don't know why, they just don't touch the right spot. In fact, to be honest, I generally don't think they're very good. An exception might be the Wynton Kelly, Coltrane and Getz version but that's only one. Getz plays Moonlight In Vermont over it!
So, if anyone here finds it easy, do say, or even demonstrate it. Comments welcome. I'm NOT looking for tips on how to play it, I know all the tips, but any personal observations/experiences on the tune welcome.
Also, please don't just post up You Tubes on it, I've seen 'em all. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
It is difficult... but not sure it is the difficulty that teaches jazz.. I mean I would just play the tune as it is here (as vocal as possible).
Because I think the changes are very much connected with the orginal melody to give it a charachter.
If one improvizes something new over it, it just loses its charm.
Destpite the two chords per bar (as you mentioned) the harmony is very static: if I forget the melody and just play the chords, it sounds like very much generalized turnarouds and very clow going, there is no sharpness in harmony, almost no motion (except very bassic ascending bass move which is not always used even) yes they are shifted a bit around the keys but not much and very slowly, very spacious. So to me the most interesting thing is how the original melody treats the harmony.
As for the records... I noticed the solos are often 'bluesy' probably because of major/minor tonic in original tune. And I did not really like any instrumental versions
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Blues is the basis...major blues and minor blues.
You can practice Solar by M. Davis - it's also a blues with 12 bars in C minor.
As Oldane said..."the most inportant thing in jazz is its rhythm".
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Thanks for your post. I also didn't care for many instrumental versions. I think we're together there. And I certainly wanted to avoid playing too many blues sounds over it, if any; it's not really a blues at all. Originally Posted by Jonah
But I also wanted to avoid simply playing an embellished version of the melody for the solo. Which, if the listener's just heard the melody, becomes an obvious move and rather repetitive. Probably it needs something between the two, between new and not new.
I'm sure it'll work itself out in the end, probably by accident :-)
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Yea... but maybe how many ways could one play a tune. I mean if your just playing the chart .... the changes, melody and melodic implications, style etc... Is that actually playing in a jazz style.
So yea maybe one tune, any tune could be used to teach jazz.
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If only it were that simple... Originally Posted by Reg
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Do you mean the recording Something Else? That intro was so imaginative. I have it on album and have played the heck out of it. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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thank you. Originally Posted by ragman1
I liked it. Maybe I am wrong but it seems that in the second half o f the impro there were things that did not work out... but otherwise... especially at the beginning of the solo it was really great, and your rythmic feel in the melodic lines is very subtle
You know I think a part of the success here is just staying in the same mood and maybe not pushing too much some extraordinary ideas...
when your solo began it felt like the maine characted stepped away but it is the same staging but some butterfiles are flying, or leaves go down in cirles... or some light lonely dancer easily swifts in the air...
Maybe it is the key to soloing over such a tune? Because most of the instrumental versions I heard - they try so hard to make solo more important than the tune itself, make it a culminaation... but make it is the kind of tune where it makes sense to be a little more a part of landscape?
I am sure you know Billie Holiday record... with a fantastic accompniment of Oscar Peterson... basically his accompaniment is such a solo. there are so many things going on in his playing but it so gentle and non-intrusive... he seems to play full chords in 8ths but it sounds as if it is a buttefly flying
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Well it is that simple Rag.... the even more obvious detail.... you need the skills on your instrument to be able to realize the concepts on your instrument. Originally Posted by ragman1
If only it were that simple...
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Theoretically, maybe, but then so is anything else. In practice, however, it's obviously not so simple otherwise we'd all be jazz superstars. Either that or most of us are pretty dumb people! Originally Posted by Reg
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Absolutely. Actually, that applies to nearly every instrumental version. The first section of the song is straightforward - all in F, Ab and C ending with a C7 turnaround. Originally Posted by Jonah
The second part begins the same as the first but then modulates into Bb minor/ Db major/F minor and it sounds as though the tune has got lost somewhere but it repeats the theme at the end so it feels back on track. So somewhere in the second half it's all a bit strange temporarily.
Every instrumental version following that harmony will sound a bit lost towards the end, it's inherent in the nature of the tune.
This player has more or less overcome it by using substitutions all the way through and it's not bad. But no solo :-)
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That's the one. You get a modal vamp, functional harmony, it swings, there's blues, ii V's, and it teaches you the Real Book key isn't always the one a tune will be called in. That's gotta be about 75% of jazz at least Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Well I don't think it's the "dumb" thing.... generally it's more of the lack of understanding of what one is trying to do.
You don't need to be a superstar to understand and be able to play in a Jazz style well.
Generally most just don't work on what's required to develop the skills.
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You better tell them, Reg, I wouldn't know!
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To the OP. If there was, it would be well known in the jazz world.
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I can't remember who said that Autumn Leaves was their desert island tune (maybe Hank Jones who plays piano on Something Else or Tommy Flanagan?) but it certainly offers a lot - melodic sequencing, ii-Vs in both major and relative minor plus an interpolated iv chord to complete the cycle, room for rhythmic answer phrases... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
That's the one. You get a modal vamp, functional harmony, it swings, there's blues, ii V's, and it teaches you the Real Book key isn't always the one a tune will be called in. That's gotta be about 75% of jazz at least
As for the key, most earlier recordings are in G/Em rather than Bb/Gm and I wonder if Cannonball was simply playing off a concert chart in rehearsals and liked the sound of the tune transposed up a minor 3rd on his alto sax. It's become the standard key ever since.
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