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I’ve seen this tweet of Adam Neely’s floating around. Thoughts …
Spoiler alert, I think this is … um … not correct.The problem with the Marsalis definition of jazz as having 1) swing, 2) blues, and 3) improvisation...
...is that bluegrass music fits that definition perfectly, and Bossa Nova has none of it, but jazz school students study Jobim, not Earl Scruggs.
Genre is a weird thing.
http://https://twitter.com/its_adamn...01938067370200
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04-04-2024 09:12 AM
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He's paraphrasing Marsalis incorrectly.
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Marsalis's definition is that jazz is music that sounds like jazz, just as classical music is music that sounds like classical music. The analog between the two is that an informed listener can hear the commonality between examples that seem quite different and can detect historical and stylistic references common across the genre. He then goes on to say improvisation is not the defining feature of jazz, and that the swing beat and consistent use of the flatted 3 and the flatted 7 in the melody are. He then hedges that by saying lots of music that doesn't have those characteristics can (arguably) also be called jazz.
IOW, he doesn't have a definition of jazz, just some thoughts of what jazz is and is not. However Neely is correct in saying genre is a bitch, and I imagine Marsalis would agree.
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Link is Server Not Found. Because it can't be http:// and also https://.
Removing the https:// it says Page Not Found. Removing the http:// it also says Page Not Found.
But I found it anyway. Like this:
Last edited by ragman1; 04-04-2024 at 10:44 AM.
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Neely is responding to Wynton.
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I don't think the Marsalis definition is wrong per se, just incomplete. Of course jazz has swing, blues and improvisation... but not all of it by any means.
Bluegrass has nothing to do with it. And bluegrass doesn't 'swing' in that sense in any case. At all.
I'm not sure where Adam's head was that day :-)
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Bossa nova has improvisation. Not in every case, but neither does jazz (there’s a reason why that is third on the list).
Brazilian music has definitely incorporated the blues … thinking of the vamp in Wave as an easy example.
And the most interesting is the swing … Wynton is definitely not referring to the elongated first eighth note exclusively. I think it’s in the Ken Burns doc where he specifically references Bossa and samba and says they definitely swing. I believe he refers to swing as a rhythmic “bounce” in the music.
So I’m not really sure what Adam is going for here, other than clickbait. Which I suppose he got.
As an aside … I definitely think jazzers should study bluegrass. The vocabulary has something in common with jazz in that it uses some half step chromaticism and runs changes in a way that a lot of other music doesn’t. It’s also got a “tradition” in the way jazz does, with a repertoire you’re expected to know etc. Honestly jazz school should favor jazz, but should probably incorporate some study of a bunch of different popular traditions.
anyway.
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I suppose you could say this 'swings', which is true in the sense it's not straight 4/4, but it's not a jazz swing. There are extended and altered sounds, a blues tinge and improv but, again, it's not at all the same feel as what anyone would call jazz. Totally different genre.
But is this jazz either???
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I played bluegrass for years. It ain't jazz. Bluegrassers should study jazz if they want to raise their bar a little. Which Tony Rice did under John Carlini. Not that he ever lost his bluegrass feel, just widened his harmonic horizons. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I saw Neely's thread on this. Twitter, maybe?
Lot of back and forth and an admission that there is improv and blues in some Bossa Nova.
Curiously, few looked at the other side: bluegrass. My response to Neely's post was "Free Earl Scruggs."
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I like the definition of jazz I like the best is: Jazz isn't a what, it's a how.
Or If I gotta tell you, you'll never know
Genre is a weird thing. I definitely disagree that bossa doesn't swing...but I have a broader definition of swing, I guess...I mean, Tony Williams swung like mad when he was playing straight 8ths.
I think one of the biggest hallmarks of jazz is how the rhythm section improvises in support of the soloist. That doesn't happen as much in other musics...if at all.
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To be honest, most bluegrass players would also say exactly that too, that it's all in the feel, the spirit of the thing. They absolutely don't think in terms of half-step chromatics and all that, they just copy the sound. Which isn't too difficult over a G chord :-) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I know a few good bluegrass musicians, I might pose this question to them "What is bluegrass?" Originally Posted by ragman1
I have a gut feeling their answer will be repertoire.
"Gypsy Jazz" and bluegrass have TONS of parallels if you think about it...
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The root of the issue is that genre really isn't an objective set of musical characteristics, but rather a social construct that only makes sense within a certain historical context.
Can you come up with an actual music definition that would actually encompass everything under the umbrella of "rock" music? Everything from Little Richard to Suicide to The Band to Dimmu Borgir to Fiona Apple to Scott Walker's late albums?
"I know it when I hear it" seems like a copout, but it's absolutely true. We know it without thinking about it, because we've been steeped in that particular historical and social context.
It's also why I've never bought the Marsalis argument that Cecil Taylor, Anthony Braxton, etc aren't true jazz. Whether they have XYZ characteristics is irrelevant, because it's clear as day that they come from the exact same social/historical continuum that every other jazz artist does.
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Idiots can't understand what jazz is.
I made a thread which defines it succinctly:
What jazz is
The definition:
1. Is the band or member(s) in the band doing continuous melody/harmony interplay improv?
Yes --> Jazz
No ---> Continue to question 2
2. Does the music primarily overlap with jazz elements established in the golden age?
Yes --> Jazz
No ---> Parent style
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Dasein beat me to it. "Genre" is just another way of saying "kind" or "category"--a way of gathering items into groups--and for complex sets of items, categories can overlap or interpenetrate in all, um, kinds of ways. And in the arts world, "genre" is complicated by being a kind of agreement between makers and audiences, with decorum (sets of "oughts" and "musts" and "nevers") being one of the contributing factors and historical continuity being another.
And (to introduce a metaphor) makers are always messing with the recipes, sometimes out of boredom with the expected ingredients, sometimes out of curiosity or inventiveness or perversity*. Sophisticated audiences are able to look/listen back along the line leading to a given item or group of items and see connections and discontinuities and dissimilarities and decide on how close they are to a notional center.
BTW, if that Bennett-Rice performance isn't jazzy, grits ain't groceries, eggs ain't poultry and Mona Lisa was a man. The Scofield is also jazzy, with big dollops of rock and blues (which might amount to the same thing) mixed in. Them grits is definitely groceries. Or maybe gumbo.
* Satire and parody depend on expectations and get their kick from messing with them. As does ordinary genre extension/development.
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Succinctly defines it over 3 pages of arguing.... Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Your definition would also label bluegrass as jazz
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To translate … is it jazz … Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
1. is there improvising?
2. is it jazz?
I see Christian already pointed this out in the original thread, but you would need to define what “elements” you’re referring to or the definition isn’t terribly helpful. I suspect “blues” and “swing” would both be involved.
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Uh no. So you're going to be irrational too? :P I know you understand that. I don't need to explain it in further depth, do I? I guess you didn't want to read the whole thread.
Point 1 is self explainatory, you understand that right? Playing over the changes with melody, having the melody interact with the changes continuously with improv. The essence of jazz.
Point 2 which I said in the thread like modal - so what. They forgo playing changes, but there's still swing, instrumentation, jazz vocab, etc. So it's jazz.
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General rule of thumb, if your definition includes the term you purport to define, it’s probably not the best definition. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Not to mention it refers to, for example, a “golden age.” Which age is that?
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Ok. But that's ridiculous to say that people can't comprehend that Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong in the 20s to Miles Davis in the 50s-60s is the golden age of jazz. There were also no other styles during that time which obscured the genre boundaries either.
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Point 1 is not exclusive to jazz so it is bad criteria. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Point 2 has similar challenges. Swing - well Samba swings, Rockabilly swings, Blues swings. Ska bands use similar instrumentation is that jazz?
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Rock players can play over changes, but not predominantly so it's not jazz. There has to be rational discernment.
I said if the music shares the majority of characteristics, not 1. Be rational. Like so what shares the majority of characteristics with golden age: swing, jazz vocab, instrumentation, dynamics, etc. Ska only shares 1: instrumentation. It's the parent style.
I'm going to work soon. I can tell I'm going to have to parent the f out of you guys with your irrational, compulsive, neurotic reactions when I get back.
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I think I just wrote the best definition, which is also a completely terrible definition
Jazz is music played by jazz musicians in a jazz style.
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What I'm wondering is, why would anyone listen to this Neely guy if he can't tell the difference between jazz and bluegrass...
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I mean … I don’t think that’s what he meant. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Though all the weirdness about Bossa is a bit of an eyebrow raiser.
Better question is about the strong opinions he has about jazz when he’s not really a jazz player. Hes quite a good player … but by his own definitions of jazz, you don’t hear him playing it all that often.
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