Adam Neely on the Marsalis definition of jazz

[Jimmy Smith]

People have to call everything punk or jazz. It's annoying af. Just call it the parent style.

[fep]

There are blues tunes that are also jazz standards. Goodbye Pork Pie Hat comes to mind.

[Jimmy Smith]

^ Well blues and jazz is an established and logical crossover.

[pamosmusic]

On blues being an important component of jazz … just got the music for a gig I have Saturday … the first two tunes are This Here, by Bobby Timmons, which is blues all day, and Mambo Influenciado, by Chucho Valdez which is a mambo, but is a minor blues form.

[pauln]

… some people who insist on calling any non-classical music produced by people with music degrees jazz.
...from maybe an excessive attachment to “jazz” as a label.

Parallel and close to my thinking - that in the old days (near the origins of jazz before it took that name) the general thinking was two kinds of music; classical "long hair" serious legit art music, and "everything else" (just loosely called jazz, containing various other sub-labels).

Maybe the excessive attachment was originally to “classical” as a label.
Maybe the "jazz" that developed as we know it then adopted for itself the "second best label available for music" before any other sub-labels. Maybe the first Great Folk Scare was the fear that Burl Ives et al might be first to take the "jazz" label, ...or maybe not.

[RLetson]

The "no dancing" signs were more likely an artifact of NYC Cabaret Law, which prohibited dancing (or singing or music) in places lacking a cabaret license. And while a lot of bebop (especially later bop) is played just a bit too fast for comfortable dancing, much of what I hear in the early stuff would be quite manageable for experienced swing dancers. In fact, there's this reference to Barry Harris:

How To Dance To Bebop : A Blog Supreme : NPR

What I hear in early bebop is ambitious musicians playing in modes that are not restricted by the social environments of their usual working situations--playing for dancers and accompanying singers. The after-hours settings--in unlicensed clubs--let them stretch out, push limits, experiment, and generally not worry about pleasing the management.

On the other hand, I can feel the dance pulse even in uptempo bop material--and social dancing moves could be managed to very fast material, as the Lindy Hoppers sequence from Hellzapoppin' demonstrates. The Lindy Hoppers might have been a performance outfit, but their dancing was rooted in actual social-dance practice.

[pamosmusic]

The "no dancing" signs were more likely an artifact of NYC Cabaret Law, which prohibited dancing (or singing or music) in places lacking a cabaret license. And while a lot of bebop (especially later bop) is played just a bit too fast for comfortable dancing, much of what I hear in the early stuff would be quite manageable for experienced swing dancers. In fact, there's this reference to Barry Harris:

How To Dance To Bebop : A Blog Supreme : NPR

What I hear in early bebop is ambitious musicians playing in modes that are not restricted by the social environments of their usual working situations--playing for dancers and accompanying singers. The after-hours settings--in unlicensed clubs--let them stretch out, push limits, experiment, and generally not worry about pleasing the management.

On the other hand, I can feel the dance pulse even in uptempo bop material--and social dancing moves could be managed to very fast material, as the Lindy Hoppers sequence from Hellzapoppin' demonstrates. The Lindy Hoppers might have been a performance outfit, but their dancing was rooted in actual social-dance practice.

Ive heard that about the signs, also heard that Parker hated when people danced to his music. Most likely something in between … that he felt his music was different and thought the existing signs were amusing.

Point being, that he really felt like his music was a departure from what came before it.

Theres this, for example:

Blocked

(it’s Reddit … it’s not actually blocked)

[Christian Miller]

Well when I say core everyone agrees that for example Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker is jazz. You don’t need to get into the weeds of musicology to establish that.

The use of the term is normative for most people as - ‘argh! Turn off that noise. I hate jazz.’ In this case an extensive exploration of the objectively definable characteristics of the music is not deemed necessary and an understanding of the term is reached intuitively.


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[Christian Miller]

Ive heard that about the signs, also heard that Parker hated when people danced to his music. Most likely something in between … that he felt his music was different and thought the existing signs were amusing.

Point being, that he really felt like his music was a departure from what came before it.

Theres this, for example:

Blocked

(it’s Reddit … it’s not actually blocked)

I notice that poor old Dizzy gets written out of these discussions. I mean any discussion of bop. I haven’t even transcribed any Diz solos I’m ashamed to say.

Diz was one of the best amateur dancers at the Savoy. He got free entry. He believed bop could be danced to. Norma Miller did not agree lol, but she wasn’t the only dancer in the world.

Barry had a thing about this too. He first heard Bird at a dance hall and often referenced dancing in his teaching. He used to say ‘dancers keep the musicians honest. The worst thing to happen to jazz is that it moved out of the dance halls.’ And he was fairly bebop I would say.


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[Christian Miller]

The no dancing signs were a result of licensing restrictions btw. Nothing to do with the players. EDIT: oh I see Letson has posted this already.

I was also reading an Ethan Iverson blog where he said jazz kind of lost its swing for a little while during the early bop days - and it took a while to settle down a players got more used to the technical challenges. He then linked to this recording of Sid Catlett playing with bird et al, which is interesting. I mean it really swings…

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[MarkRhodes]

This is the root of it all imo. Jazz is sophisticated music, so everyone wants to be jazz.

I don't know. I spent 5 years living in New Orleans and the Dixieland tradition remains vibrant. Although it is not as simple to play well as casual listeners might think, even those who know it and love it respond primarily the rhythm and feel of it, not its sophistication. Indeed, some jazz fans don't regard Dixieland as, well, real jazz but rather "old-timey sh*t."

[Christian Miller]

I think that attitude is becoming less and less prevalent, or at least I RARELY encounter it among younger players, and as for younger music fans in general, I think they just like the vibe. I think the dreaded Wynton may have had something to with that?

The old jazz culture wars of the twentieth century have been replaced by a more canonical narrative much like Classical music. That has a downside as well as an upside…


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[RLetson]

Long ago, I would hear the New Orleans-derived jazz usually labeled "Dixieland" called "straw-hat music," which made a kind of sense when I got to compare genuine New Orleans music with either the earliest white versions (say, the Original Dixieland Jass Band) or the much later San Francisco bands--"Dixieland" (which I think the Brits would call "trad") was fun, but more conventionalized than what I heard on, say, the Riverside Living Legends LPs that preserved the still-living (in the early 1960s) tradition that inspired white Dixieland bands. To this day, I can hear New Orleans in Randy Newman in the same way I can hear the black church in Sam Cooke.

I also recall tracing that music through its historical spread and development and associates--blues queens, early Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, Paul Whiteman, swing dance bands--and backtracking to ragtime and pre-swing dance musics. The connections and contrasts are not hard to find, and it was clear to me that I was exploring an extended family of musics with plenty of overlaps but strong and pervasive roots in African-American culture and eventually influences and borrowings from all over, from Jelly Roll's "Spanish tinge" to "Unsquare Dance."

[Christian Miller]

Long ago, I would hear the New Orleans-derived jazz usually labeled "Dixieland" called "straw-hat music," which made a kind of sense when I got to compare genuine New Orleans music with either the earliest white versions (say, the Original Dixieland Jass Band) or the much later San Francisco bands--"Dixieland" (which I think the Brits would call "trad") was fun, but more conventionalized than what I heard on, say, the Riverside Living Legends LPs that preserved the still-living (in the early 1960s) tradition that inspired white Dixieland bands. To this day, I can hear New Orleans in Randy Newman in the same way I can hear the black church in Sam Cooke.

I also recall tracing that music through its historical spread and development and associates--blues queens, early Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, Paul Whiteman, swing dance bands--and backtracking to ragtime and pre-swing dance musics. The connections and contrasts are not hard to find, and it was clear to me that I was exploring an extended family of musics with plenty of overlaps but strong and pervasive roots in African-American culture and eventually influences and borrowings from all over, from Jelly Roll's "Spanish tinge" to "Unsquare Dance."

Over here what muddied the waters is that there’s a British trad jazz style which is actually its own thing and quite separate to those who want to do accurate recreations of authentic early jazz. Obviously there’s overlap, but the audience for the former crosses over far less with the latter.

The rhythm sections in British Trad tend to be quite a bit different to the ones on the old records, more influenced by 50’s R&B and blues, as well as All Stars era Louis. Tbh I know one drummer who plays an authentic 1920s style set up and it’s a revelation - you can hear acoustic guitar! - but most bang away on the ride cymbal.

(Tbf the rhythm sections always changed; 40s Dixieland had a swing style rhythm section.)

Having played with various trad jazz vets over the years, I greatly respect these musicians, but the vibe I get is that playing with the big names of British Trad was very much a day job. To be brutally honest the scene won’t exist in a few more years.

The youthful vintage jazz fad has gone out of style… As for the swing dancing gigs - seems like the writing is on the wall from what I hear, although maybe still strong internationally. Most of swing band buddies seemed to have moved onto other things. Including - Bluegrass!

Is it too late to retrain lol?

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[Ukena]

[...] Is it too late to retrain lol?

If you limit your solos to scale notes (except for slide-ups and pull-offs, of course) and blue notes, and learn bass runs (do-re-ri-mi-sol-la-do!), and try to keep your comping below the fifth fret, your swing won't get in the way of bluegrass.

[Christian Miller]

If you limit your solos to scale notes (except for slide-ups and pull-offs, of course) and blue notes, and learn bass runs (do-re-ri-mi-sol-la-do!), and try to keep your comping below the fifth fret, your swing won't get in the way of bluegrass.

Impossible! ;-)


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[dasein]

I notice that poor old Dizzy gets written out of these discussions. I mean any discussion of bop. I haven’t even transcribed any Diz solos I’m ashamed to say

I've also thought about this, and I think there are a few reasons:

- Being unfairly being compared to Charlie Parker. Bird died young, fighting his demons, and fits the notion of "the artist who burns the candle at both ends." Dizzy was the comedian/the teacher and had a long fulfilling career, which with our Romantic notions of art means that he was somehow less serious.

- Dizzy's style is incredibly difficult for other trumpeters to copy. It was easier for sax players to get a "faux Bird" sound. But most trumpeters went the Fats Navarro/Clifford Brown route instead. I mean, who was the first guy who actually got that Dizzy sound... Jon Faddis? Almost 30 years later?

- A lot of Dizzy's post-40's work is tied to his big bands, and big bands were just out of fashion by then. That's a real shame, because that music is extremely important. Those Verve big band sessions are as important to the music as anything else from that time period. It's so rhythmically sophisticated, and was a huge influence on all the small groups from that period. You can learn so much about swing from those records.

[ruger9]

[orri]

late to the thread

It makes sense to me to view jazz as a tradition or culture.
So jazz music is music that is played in the jazz tradition.

With this "definition" I think most people can agree that Bossa Nova is part of the jazz tradition, arranged big band music without improvised solos are part of the jazz tradition, but bluegrass is usually considered to be a different tradition even though it has many things in common (it doesn't make bluegrass any worse or less important, it's just different).

Of course the line for what's part of the jazz tradition isn't clear. You'll still be able find examples where people will not agree on whether something is part of the jazz tradition/culture or not.

[Christian Miller]

I think that's it....

I remember talking to a modern player and he said 'oh yeah I love the tradition, I've transcribed Herbie, Chick, all those guys' and I remember thinking - hmmm... I know some people who regard that as very much NOT the tradition haha. Nonetheless, Chick is gone at 79 and Herbie is 84... Louis was born in 1901... So he was younger than that when THOSE guys were coming through in the 60s - even when they started plugging in...

[_bix_]

Abbey Lincoln's bluegrass breakdown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lgtFelBI8