George Benson teacher attacking other teacher calling him idiot, a-hole and loser

[Mick-7]

So, Christian, without delving into Allan's phrasing, which of course is important because it affects how the lines will be fingered, I would normally stick to standard scale fingerings. Will this not work?

Take this line....

Allan Holdsworth line (diminished)

D7b9 GM7

Fingering:
---- 3 - 4 - 2 - 4 - 3 - 1 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 3

e|----- 16----------------11------------------------------------------------------|
B|--15----13--15----------------------------12---------------------------------|
G|--------------------14------13--14--10------------10-------11-------------|
D|---------------------------------------------------13-------10--------9--------|
A|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------12---|
E|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Diminished scale:

e|--16--14--13--11----------------------------------------------------------------------|
B|------------------------15--13--12------------------------------------------------------|
G|----------------------------------------14--13--11--10---------------------------------|
D|--------------------------------------------------------------13--12--10--9-------------|
A|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------12--11---|
E|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Christian Miller]

OK so my phone really doesn't like the formatting of the tab. I had to read this on a computer...

So, Christian, without delving into Allan's phrasing, which of course is important because it affects how the lines will be fingered, I would normally stick to standard scale fingerings. Will this not work?

In a word no, not for the fast stuff, 16th triplets at 120 and so on. And even for the slower stuff, it doesn't sound like Allan.

So it depends on how much you want to sound like him. But if you do, the fingerings are really a trip.

Take a look at Allan playing live, obviously, pay attention to how he used his left hand.

Take this line....

Allan Holdsworth line (diminished)

D7b9 GM7

Fingering:
---- 3 - 4 - 2 - 4 - 3 - 1 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 3

e|----- 16----------------11------------------------------------------------------|
B|--15----13--15----------------------------12---------------------------------|
G|--------------------14------13--14--10------------10-------11-------------|
D|---------------------------------------------------13-------10--------9--------|
A|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------12---|
E|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Diminished scale:

e|--16--14--13--11----------------------------------------------------------------------|
B|------------------------15--13--12------------------------------------------------------|
G|----------------------------------------14--13--11--10---------------------------------|
D|--------------------------------------------------------------13--12--10--9-------------|
A|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------12--11---|
E|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

EDIT: OK so the first one is the 4nps septuplet diminished thing. Duh!

The thing is, the 4nps fingering I posted is EASY once you have the shape dialled in. It's not problem to play. More importantly, it seems to reflect the sound of how Allan plays it.

Importantly because of the properties of standard tuning the 3nps dim shape that several of these lines are based on doesn't require any shifts. This means it's very easy to play FAST. That's another reason why I would die on the hill of it being in that position.

Your fingering looks pretty awkward tbh. I wouldn't like to pick that haha. I suppose possibly you can manage those single notes on a string with left hand hammers?

Important - bear in mind that these really aren't crazy stretches they might seem to be. You can play a lot of this stuff with a hand position similar to a 3nps scale at 3rd fret. Allan will consistently choose higher positions for this reason. Frets are closer together innit.

This is where I'm basing my approach for fingerings in the transcriptions, If you want to gain an insight into the mechanics of Allan's technique this video is invaluable. 5 hours of your time well spent if you are a fan.

If you are pushed for time here is my 1 minute YouTube short discussing the diminished pattern fingering. I think it's also discussed in the bowels of the 5hr vid somewhere. (Edit: It’s at 2:38:49 there’s a timestamp in the description.)

Crazy lines with this Holdsworth Diminished shape - YouTube

Attached are the City Nights fingerings. Allan wasn't afraid to stretch.

[pamosmusic]

I definitely shift this way, which I’m 99.9% certain it’s an artifact of all the classical I played.

Then again Holdsworth is not my wheelhouse … I’m out here transcribing Clifford Brown like a chump.

[lawson-stone]

Playing with three fingers comes from a misunderstanding of the mechanics of the hand leading to a lack of hope for the fourth finger. The initial impression is that the fourth finger is weaker, less controllable, and will be generally less usable in the long run. All fingers are unusable in the beginning, and adopting a three fingered approach develops those three leaving the fourth behind - a self fulfilling decision.

The fourth finger is actually the strongest finger. This is easily demonstrated every time you grip a golf club, a baseball bat, a bar for doing chin-ups, grab the handle of a large pot of water on the stove, the handlebars of a bicycle, etc. You may be able to realize this without even doing the physical experiment, just imagining doing it.

The fourth finger has this strength despite being smaller and shorter; the smallness is not a reflection of strength because the muscles are up in the forearm (the bulgiest side at that), and the shorter length gives it mechanical advantage.

The three fingered approach sets the fingers at an angle whereby they point somewhat up the neck which extends their distance from the hand and put the string contact on their pads. That geometry is an additional loss of mechanical advantage, as opposed to placing the fingers parallel to the frets and curled (both less distance), and finger tip contact to the strings (mech. advantage).

The three finger approach is typically accompanied by placing the hand against the back of the neck. The thumb only contact with no hand contact, four fingers parallel and curled, tips contacting provides a freely variable position over the finger board like a rack (hand) and pinion (thumb) system, allowing local hand shifts without thumb shifts. The three fingered grip on the neck works against all this.

There is a stylistic continuum that ranges from sloppy to relaxed to focused to precise. Full control allows one to play anywhere within this continuum as desired (it even takes some skill to play "musically authentic" in the sloppy - relaxed range). Form that incurs losses in strength, reduction in mechanical advantage, and restricts spatial position flexibility and speed may not allow complete expression of some parts of that continuum.

Some may hold that the desired effect is the "tone" of three fingered execution (the sound of the articulation, feel, the balance of its musical possibilities vs its characteristic constraints). I think the method of the right hand sounding the strings (picking, fingers) is the primary source of that, not three or four fingers.

I was just given CM some good-natured ribbing.

[Mick-7]

Your fingering looks pretty awkward tbh. I wouldn't like to pick that haha. I suppose possibly you can manage those single notes on a string with left hand hammers?

You're right, other than the highest note G#, easiest to play the entire thing in the 10th fret position, or you could play it all in the 13th fret position, but you'd end up on the low E string.

Vertical scale positions commonly encompass two standard "CAGED" positions, so a five fret finger span from 1st to 4th finger is the usual, but I wouldn't normally slide with the 4th finger. The diminished scale lends itself to that though with it's whole/half step movements.

Aren't virtuoso's irritating?

Probably best to take this conversation to one of your other threads, thank you.