Too late to be a great jazz guitarist starting at 26 years old?

[Christian Miller]

Just a thought - never set a goal that’s outside of your control.


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[pingu]

Hey guys i want to ask you this(may sound silly) is it too late for me to become a great jazz player starting this late? I want to get good and play gigs at bars while im young. I played guitar from 16-18 and now my interested spiked again big time. Thanks in advance to everyone!

go for it
yes you can learn to be a ‘jazz guitar’ player at any age

whether or not you’re ‘great’ or not
is a subjective judgement and is totally in the ear of the listener

you really can’t do anything about
that , so don’t waste your time on
chasing that phantom ….

you do this stuff (music) because you love it enough to put in the hours

its the same process as doing anything you love

go for it

[DawgBone]

Well this post is........ something. One of the worst I have seen on the forum. We're calling people quitters now who are looking for advice?

No, it is not too late. To reach heights of fame and tour the world? Maybe, but that is unachievable for most if not 99.999% of us. I think Christian nailed it above. If you truly LOVE the music and you feel that this music is something you want to spend your life time pursuing, regardless of fame or success or labels like "great" then go for it. If it is only to gig, make money, etc then maybe not. It is a ton of work and there really are no shortcuts or "hacks". I played guitar since I was 12/13 and was in successful "rock" bands, but got the jazz bug later as well and did not really seriously start working on it until 26 or so. I couldn't shed the bug, and jazz became all I listened to and practiced for awhile. So I went back and studied it academically over the last few years. Some will hate on the an academic path for learning the music, but for me it was exactly what I needed to play with those better than me (which truly is an amazing learning tool), to be in ensembles and groups I would not have had access to while learning, and study with amazing teachers and players. I would never consider myself "great" or having "made it", but now in my 30's I get to gig (typically for little pay outside of lucking into corporate stuff) and perform the music I love regularly with good friends starting in my 30's and its taken me on some great adventures.

Imagine if he is wounded deeply by my post. What do you think lays in wait out there for someone who wants to be a great jazz guitarist? He said "great". When I see someone, even on a local stage, that knows their guitar I recognize what kind of sacrifice was involved to get there. It takes great sacrifice to become a great player. Most people will find the sacrifice too great because the reward is in hand claps more than dollars a lot of, most of, the time.

If he just wants random gigs here and there, sure, it's entirely possible. But he said "great". It sounds romantic but getting there isn't. I gave my best advice for a career in music, making actual money. It' isn't likely to be playing jazz guitar. If that's your calling, so be it. Go all out. Find a niche and be uncompromising about your artistic vision. The jack of all trades makes more initially but is capped at that level eternally. You need good fortune just to find good personnel for a group unless you like taking orders from someone else.

A lot of guys supplement gig income with lessons. I've had one or two people ask. I could use the money but I will only give lessons to someone who asks and I tell to go away 3x and they still come back. Then after that they will need to bring me whiskey and help me haul, stack, and split firewood for a while so we don't freeze during their winter lessons. No one has taken me up on any of that so far. If you can't haul wood for a few weeks without turning into a whiny bitch you probably won't last 25 or 30 years in the business getting great. What OP fails to realize is once you've gone a certain length of time, there is no option of turning back because the stink of musician emanates off you at every normal job interview and you are left alone to your "greatness" to earn you eating $$$$$.

Here:

1. Your grandfather passes away and his funeral is this week. You are offered a really tough to get gig you've been hammering away at for years and it's the same day as grandpa's funeral. What do you do?

2. You make detailed summer plans with your girlfriend or wife and the above happens, maybe even a residency. What do you do?

3. You get offered a hard to get gig but all your regular trustworthy guys are booked. What do you do?

The answer is "take the gig" to all of the above. Do you like that?

Everything is secondary to doing something "great" and lemme tell you, it's a problem most people aren't prepared for. It actually implies you are a selfish asshole with your time. I don't play jazz and I ain't even great and I am that already. I have hired many guys who wanted to do "jazz" to play what I am playing so there is that. So if you still wanna go for it, welcome to the club. How are your blues chops?

Whoever suggested going to a jazz program is probably OP's best bet if he's actually serious but a truly motivated individual would bypass school and get working at home and in private lessons being time better spent than just earning credits in school not related to jazz. He's 26 so he can still fit in with the kids though so I guess there is that.

[AllanAllen]

DawgBone is right again about taking those gigs, but left out the part that your grandpas funeral is on a Tuesday and the gig is 3 hours away and pays $300 for the entire band. Then you show up and nobody is there and the owner is pissed that you didn't promote it better.

These are the decisions you'll be making. It can be fun, but it can also be devastating.

I'm friends with a few professionals, and hearing their stories... I'm glad to have my day job.

[pingu]

1325040[/URL]]Just a thought - never set a goal that’s outside of your control.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

a variation on Stoicism ?

there is a great deal of wisdom

[wintermoon]

A lot of guys supplement gig income with lessons. I've had one or two people ask. I could use the money but I will only give lessons to someone who asks and I tell to go away 3x and they still come back. Then after that they will need to bring me whiskey and help me haul, stack, and split firewood for a while so we don't freeze during their winter lessons. No one has taken me up on any of that so far. If you can't haul wood for a few weeks without turning into a whiny bitch you probably won't last 25 or 30 years in the business getting great. What OP fails to realize is once you've gone a certain length of time, there is no option of turning back because the stink of musician emanates off you at every normal job interview and you are left alone to your "greatness" to earn you eating $$$$$.

If it wasn't for the fact that this guy said he doesn't own a TV I'd swear he's been watching too many episodes of Kung Fu and is gonna end up like the master in the Kill Bill flick.

[rpjazzguitar]

I don't know if there's anything about brain development that makes it easier to start younger, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is.

But, even if there is some difference, I don't think it would prevent somebody from doing it.

There are other issues. The chops part isn't so difficult. Lots of teens have chops. Learning to be a so-called "well rounded jazz musician" takes a lot more than that, though.

One thing that really matters is the state of your ears. It really helps to have what musicians call "big ears". There's some inborn talent and early exposure relevant to that, I think, but I can't quantify it.

But, if, somehow, you can already hear the details, that saves a lot of time.

And, then, there are all the other skills a "beast" has. How quickly can you get familiar with hundreds of tunes? Learn to read? Build combo-playing skills? etc etc.

[DawgBone]

DawgBone is right again about taking those gigs, but left out the part that your grandpas funeral is on a Tuesday and the gig is 3 hours away and pays $300 for the entire band. Then you show up and nobody is there and the owner is pissed that you didn't promote it better.

These are the decisions you'll be making. It can be fun, but it can also be devastating.

I'm friends with a few professionals, and hearing their stories... I'm glad to have my day job.

Yeah there is what you mentioned plus the drummer you hired can't count and hangs you out to dry on the meter the day of grandpa's funeral, tipping you into a fit off personal agony on the ride back. Just you and your thoughts and the dashboard soaking up your fist for a few hours because you were shooting for greatness and he was shooting for the last measure and free beer. That's just one night. We need a few dozen of these stories or our project probably isn't even off the ground yet. And your wife is still mad you took a gig over the plans you made a few weeks back so you need to calm her down when you get home.

I know I'm harsh. It was intentional. But I told the OP the exact same thing I told my kid, who would still play a passable tenor sax if he hadn't taken my advice to find a different career path. I was nicer to the OP about it though. After he saw some of the fun and games he didn't need much of a talk from me, but I still wish he had picked up pedal steel. Unfortunately I am an all or nothing personality so it's go all the way or don't go at all. I would be impressed if the OP says "screw that guy" and it lights a fire under him. But it needs to be a long lasting and hot fire. Forget chops, the business will sort out the pretenders all on it's own with massive frustration and setbacks. So I thought an up front taste would be beneficial. You need to be tough, almost obstinate, cold, robotic, and occasionally mean, to carry out your vision. If it's a calling then you don't have a choice anyways, so disregard the ramblings of someone who in his own way tried to touch some greatness. Maybe someday. Next month maybe. Next year. Five years. When I am 55 I will be great!!!! It's always somehow just out of my reach. I can sometimes just touch it with the tip of a finger or two or maybe a couple measures, maybe even a song or two, but I can't ever hold on to it, it's so fleeting!

[Fusionshred]

The OP never said he wanted to be a full-time professional jazz guitarist. Maybe the true shortcoming among some of you is reading comprehension. Others have offered relevant, responsive, informative and insightful information.

And maybe we’re self-aggrandizing a bit about how much of a sacrifice and struggle it is to accomplish some degree of proficiency.

I would guess that if many of the great figures in jazz history thought of their development as such a horribly burdensome feat, they would be unknown today.

It’s a guitar. It’s twelve notes. Let’s not pretend we’re greater or more important than we are.

[AllanAllen]

The OP never said he wanted to be a full-time professional jazz guitarist. Maybe the true shortcoming among some of you is reading comprehension. Others have offered relevant, responsive, informative and insightful information.

And maybe we’re self-aggrandizing a bit about how much of a sacrifice and struggle it is to accomplish some degree of proficiency.

I would guess that if many of the great figures in jazz history thought of their development as such a horribly burdensome feat, they would be unknown today.

It’s a guitar. It’s twelve notes. Let’s not pretend we’re greater or more important than we are.

We're all guessing at what OP meant by "great jazz guitarist" and "beast of a jazz player." That sounds pretty ambitious and as such, he's getting replies related to full time professional ambitions. The overall reply is "maybe, it's going to be hard, and the playing chops are the easy part."

[Kirk Garrett]

I agree with Mr. Beaumont, that the key factor may be putting yourself in the midst of the most active and alive jazz culture of musicians performing. In some city. Maybe in the Netherlands, maybe in New York or Chicago.

Go now.

I don’t think of bar bands being great jazzers except perhaps in those places.

[mr. beaumont]

The young brain can definitely soak things up quicker...but there's also the case for the more experienced brain being able to think more abstractly...and some jazz concepts are pretty abstract. Some. Most of the important stuff is far less.

It's probably time for me to tell my story, as I started taking jazz seriously at just a slightly younger age than our OP. If you want the cliff notes, it has an unhappy ending, I'm not great. But that ending was at lest partially avoidable.

We make choices in life. I did not major in music in college, even though it was already something I loved. In college I was in multiple bands, played every weekend, often Friday and Saturday, sometimes more than one gig a day. Subbed in a wedding band that played "light jazz" during cocktail hour occasionally. All I did was hold my guitar and play the occasional chord. I knew I loved jazz but I didn't know a thing about playing it.

So yeah, I did a lot of music. But I wanted to teach visual art...I felt teaching art was something I'd be better at. And I do think I made the right choice.

And so I settled in to a career that gave me time off. I had a girlfriend (now wife) a dog and a house. I wanted to play jazz, but I didn't know anybody else who played jazz, and I lived far enough out of the area of the city where any jazz was happening that making the effort to get there was beyond what I wanted to most of the time. Chicago is big, and though I'm only 10 miles from downtown, that can be a 2 hour trek on public transportation (driving and paying for parking is NOT a choice if you want to keep your household budget)

It was a choice. At the time I could have been going out 5 nights a week and playing jams, I instead worked on my solo guitar chops. I arranged a ton of tunes. I played solo gigs at restaurants and wine bars and wedding cocktail hours. It taught me a lot, but it didn't teach me how to play jazz with others.

That came later...truly, long after I should have gotten myself out there. I was able to fall in with a group, mostly playing Django's music, which wasn't my first love, but hey, it was jazz, and I was playing it. This time also led to more gigs in different styles too, actually. Played a lot of classic country during this period...

And then I had kids. There were no late night jams anymore, just late night feedings and diaper changes. That was a spell of a few years.

My kids are a little older now, I do a lot of coaching, I still have my summers off, I practice every day, more when I'm not working. I'm still not great, but I also am still getting better. I sometimes consider "getting back out there." But life usually gets in the way.

So moral of the story?

You don't have to turn out like me. But there are some decisions you need to make...things that can either keep your goal within your control or put it out of your control. I chose the latter.

[DawgBone]

The OP never said he wanted to be a full-time professional jazz guitarist. Maybe the true shortcoming among some of you is reading comprehension. Others have offered relevant, responsive, informative and insightful information.

And maybe we’re self-aggrandizing a bit about how much of a sacrifice and struggle it is to accomplish some degree of proficiency.

I would guess that if many of the great figures in jazz history thought of their development as such a horribly burdensome feat, they would be unknown today.

It’s a guitar. It’s twelve notes. Let’s not pretend we’re greater or more important than we are.

The OP said great, I have good reading comprehension. Great will require huge sacrifices if he wants people to say "he's a great jazz guitarist" about him. It will consume the larger share of the rest of his days. Greatness is a lifetime endeavor not something you get from four or five years practicing in a cell without bars. That's maybe half of it, a good start.

It's twelve notes. Maybe I had to try harder than others because I have less natural talent. OP lesson number one: desire trumps talent. It's easy for everyone else maybe, not me. Jazz is easy. Blues is easy. Must be nice, but those are the first words from someone's lips that will make their gig with me their last. No respect. So easy for you you can find another gig! Boots, hat, belt, western shirt, and telecaster!!!

[pamosmusic]

Here's a flip side, you can totally do this. I can find 2 hours a day with a real grown up career job, a wife and 2 kids aged 6 and 8. Don't drink and watch youtube at night, practice instead. Most of the TV shows people talk about I have no idea, sports... forget about it. I'll be practicing.

As far as gigs, make your own band or else you'll be playing stuff that's not what you like. You can find gigs as a jazz band, I'm 60 miles south of Chicago and I can find gigs out here in the corn fields for my band.

Also, at this point, I'm not even that good. Once you leave your house it's not all about being a beast of a player. You have to be a reliable team player and someone that people want to be around. If you can get a band through a tune, you're good enough to be out there.

Dawgbone is right that the market is flooded with guitar players, but a lot of them are old alcoholics who turn their amps up too loud and forget the songs they've been playing for 30 years. Just try to be better than that.

I moved from rudimentary Johnny Cash and The Kinks rock to Jazz 4 years ago, when I was 36. I was just terrible at guitar then, didn't even know the major scale. I went to the local music store and got lessons with a very talented blues and rock player. He showed me how to practice, how to learn things by ear on youtube. I brought in a lead sheet for Stardust once, we read through 4 bars in a half hour, he showed me how to take on something big and just chip away at it little by little. COVID ended that, by the time things opened back up, I could record myself and hear what I was missing, another thing he showed me. I took a few video lessons with a forum member and they helped a lot too. I still use the things we talked about and practice modified versions of the exercises Del showed me.

It's a long winded way to say, yeah, you can play jazz if you start at 26. It's a lot of work, but if you enjoy the work, it's a whole lot of fun.

Also, find your personal strengths and exploit them. For me, I had a job where I had to cold call and email places for sales, it was a bidding process... anyway, my job was to contact and follow up with places who said they wanted our services. I had to track when I contacted them what they said, when to call back. It's exactly the same way you get gigs. My strong point is I can book the gigs, and if you can book gigs, the guys won't mind propping you up a little when you play, it's how I can play with guys so much better than myself.

I would agree with most of this.

Honestly except that the market is saturated with guitarists. Sure there are lots of guitarists but not a lot who are serious enough to be gigging, even casually.

And guitar is easy to book because it’s small and unassuming and can play solo or duo. I walked into my favorite Indian restaurant to get takeout last night and the guy was like … “it’s been slow tell your friends.” And I was like …. I could fit a bass player in that corner.

But otherwise yeah …

… I have a kid and I teach a lot and I find time to practice too. To be fair I also did the music school thing and lived in good music places for a while. So that’s a jump start. But if the issue is time, it’s really a matter of interest a lot of the time. How to use that time? A good teacher is a good way to go. Or transcribing.

[Kirk Garrett]

^ Real talk right there

[pamosmusic]

Here’s another point. Something I think about from my own personal experience.

You do need the chops to cover the gig but honestly that’s not always that much. After that, the person who gets the gig is ……..


1. who is the best hang?
2. who is the best fit for the music?
3. who is the best player?

So if you’re working on yourself and can play enough tunes to be useful, then being the best player in the room is only a tie breaker after other more important stuff is taken into account.

[AllanAllen]

Seems like a good time to bring this up.

Wes Montgomery found time to practice with 8 kids and his wife sleeping in the room. AND, he never made enough to quit his day job as a welder. Tal Farlow never quit his day job as a sign painter.

Great does not mean financially successful.

[omphalopsychos]

Only skimmed this thread but my advice is:

Move to NYC, as quickly as you can. Since you’re 26 now is the time.

Get a source of funds to pay rent.

Get a teacher with a real pedigree, someone who has played with all the greats. Dont study with some random 34 year old YouTuber with a music degree (no offense).

Learn as many standards as you can and commit the to memory for real. Fuck the real book.

Go to jam sessions as often as you can.

Form a network and meet players at your level looking to gig. NY is competitive for the best gigs but there is a ton of work in smaller venues.

Enroll in community music schools if needed.

Be intelligent about how you practice. I won’t be prescriptive here but get a real teacher and ignore YouTube.

You can start to kick ass in a few years. Remember that musicality is much more important than chops.

[AllanAllen]

[frabarmus]

It ain't [only] about playing when it interests you big time. It's [also] about putting in the time when it doesn't interest you at all

Absolutely true! What are you willing to sacrifice in order to reach your goal?

[frabarmus]

The "music business" has nothing to do with personal fulfilment, unless your goal is to make a living and support a family playing jazz in bars, in which case a closer evaluation of the economics may be in order.

OP, if you LOVE to play, and you were born with some inherent talent, and you're focused and determined, you'll get to where you want to (and are able to) go.

Absolutely true! If you love music you can always go for fulfillment/self expression through guitar playing without worrying about becoming a "super hero" or making a living out of it.

In any case best of luck.

[pamosmusic]

Get a source of funds to pay rent.

Okay so I won't be coy and will clarify that the "good music town" I lived in was New York, and feel that this point should be highlighted.

Living in New York is hard and ridiculously expensive. I absolutely loved it, but I worked full time the whole time I was there in addition to gigging. I don't live in New York anymore and I teach full time and have way way more time to practice in spite of the addition of a toddler into the equation.

[pamosmusic]

I love that this thread is like “being a jazz musician is hard!” And also offering “move to New York” as advice.

Being a jazz musician is easier than like … I don’t know … getting to your dentist on an afternoon F train.

[Irishmuso]

You want to gig in the industry on guitar and make it a career? Go get a pedal steel and master it

Don't get a pedal steel. It has as much to do with playing guitar - which is what you want to do - as riding a motorbike. I played steel for several years as a student but soon realised that it was either guitar or steel; you can't aspire to being really good at both {note the use of the word aspire} Do learn some theory and how to read. Play with as many good players as you can.

Everyone here who wants to play jazz plays country because the market for jazz is small, almost non-existent, and if you want to get paid to play it's gonna be mostly country music. How does the reality sound? How's your chicken picking? You got a tele? Welcome to the music business. You really have no idea what you are even asking tbh. Hopefully my post has induced some rage and inspired you to say "I'll show that asshole". If you're annoyed now, wait till you get a taste of the business firsthand. You got no idea my man.....

I did play country at one time. I wouldn't have dreamed I could attempt to play jazz until I met an older jazz pianist who taught me a lot simply by playing with him. I have a tele but it's been on long-term loan to a real country player. I'm sorry that DawgBone sounds so bitter - music shouldn't do that.

[AllanAllen]

Telling people to move to New York is romanticism for the 1950's. You can play jazz in any city, they all have breweries, vineyards, and upscale bars. Going to New York if you can't blow through changes at a local jazz jam, is a baaaaaad idea.