-
Thanks for pointing me to de Victoria, never had heard about him and listening now (thank god for YT LOL). From renaissance composers I only knew Palestrina and Orlando di Lasso (of the latter I even heard already in primary school as he had lived in Schöngeising, a village in the rural district of Fürstenfeldbruck near Munich, which was also the rural district of the village I grew up in, when he was serving the dukes of Bavaria). For my parents music started only in the Baroque era.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
-
02-01-2024 04:32 AM
-
^ Thinking back I remember Orlando di Lasso was talked about in school as a local historical celebrity but we never listened to him in class. His music was on Bavarian public radio's classical music program from time to time.
-
Oh man, you need to get on some English Tudor polyphony then. Byrd is probably the best of them, but you have Tallis, and Taverner is wonderful too. Originally Posted by Bop Head
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Sang this recently
Byrd was a closeted Catholic in an era where that made you an enemy of the State. He was also the most highly ranked musician in the Court of Elizabeth. It’s hard to imagine .. so his music is kind of coded, like Shostakovich.
Desolata est.
-
I don’t think that’s what he’s saying at all. I think he’s comparing an approach to music that’s based on recognizable elements (eg forms, scales, and harmonies in relationships that align with the historical evolution of western music) to an approach that’s based purely on sound and conforms to no convention or rules. It’s the same dichotomy as the one that exists between those who decry the loosening of the rules of grammar & syntax and those who are fine with it. Those who decry seeing “ain't” in the dictionary just ain’t got it, so they dis the corston doin the dinky dye. Originally Posted by RLetson
In truth, it’s not a dichotomy - there’s a broad spectrum between music based on conventional forms etc and music based solely on its sound and feel. A blues can break into collective improvisation or a fugue over the same 12 bar changes. There are chords that are so beautiful I just like to hear them. There are percussive clusters that just feel right, even if they’re not repetitive, patterned, or regular in any way. Melody lines based on mathematical progressions can be very interesting. Etc etc.
My dislike is for those who ignore the basics because they don’t understand how everything in music is related. I know several younger players who seem to think that Miles started his career in 1975 and that John Zorn doesn’t know or care about conventional jazz. So they skipped the learning phase and went right to screeching 32nd notes in poorly executed runs and clusters. The analogue in art is those who don’t know that Picasso started as an excellent traditional portrait artist or that Dali was as technically excellent as anyone.
I think Haque’s attributing the explanation of old guys’ complaining that young players don’t swing and don’t respect conventions like melody to his perceived dichotomy is too simplistic. Sadly, few younger musicians who embrace unconventional music early seem to have put in the time to learn and experience anything else. They don’t swing because they haven’t been exposed to it or because they don’t care. But in truth, only western music swings in the sense that concerns him. “Our” music is just one of many throughout history and around the world. Eastern scales, tonality and rhythms are as unpleasant to many of us as conventional diatonic music is to much of the rest of civilization.
Maybe he’s right. Maybe there won’t be much jazz in 100 years because no one will swing. But even this is part of the evolution of music. If it’s the will of the people, it’s going to happen. And then there are those who groove on Gregorian chants - and they can listen to them on Spotify
-
I've often wondered how peoples raised on, say, traditional Indian or Arabic music hear Western sounds. It must all seem very bland and over-organised to them. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
-
I used to think of quarter tones in Middle Eastern scales as very unfamiliar and hard to hear until I remembered I grew up with music full of quarter tones in my dads record collection..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
When I began learning guitar there seem to be two approaches. The first was tedious scale, hand form, posture and other basics again and again and again. The second was to play what you heard and let the form evolve unconsciously. In mature musicians I can't tell how they began (exceptions include Jimi Hendrix).
There are some players who had prominence playing traditionally then bloomed pushing the envelope. They were too good not to evolve. Miles Davis and John McLaughlin are examples. New musicians stand on the shoulders of others. But there are limits. Successful musicians still must be liked by the audience. That changes too.
Talking Watches And Guitars With The Legendary John McLaughlin: From Miles Davis To Mahavishnu And Only Watch - Reprise - Quill & Pad
-
The Beatles, K-Pop and Taylor Swift would hint otherwise. Originally Posted by ragman1
-
The second group doesn't become mature musicians, that's why you can't tell the difference. Jimi Hendrix knew the tedious stuff, he also knew what was hip to talk about. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
-
Now I have read the article. Isn't it like "learn to express and do it correctly" or "do what you do, but do it well"?
What one may hear as an expression of wisdom another may hear as patronizing.
-
It is truly a magical article. Everyone who reads it has his own understanding of what it says.
-
Am i being reductionist if i say the article is basically ‘don’t be a snob’? With snobbery shown from two common perspectives.
I think the message is clear.
Which is sound advice imo. Ultimately snobbery is a self defeating exercise. I speak from experience haha.
Otoh I’m not sure how much this has to do with music itself so much as the way we are conditioned to view it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
There's a great account from an Armenian of first hearing classical music, and he describes it as a background of "mush" or "foam" (the harmony), while the melody occasionally takes wild and unpredictable swings. European harmonic conventions meant nothing to him, so the interaction between harmony and melody—which is the unique part of Western music—wasn't apparent. Originally Posted by ragman1
In the few accounts I've been able to find of African musicians listening to Western music for the first time, they all find it repetitive and dull. Presumably they were mostly listening for rhythmic interactions between the players, and pre-20th Century Western music wasn't very interesting in that regard.
Once non-Westerners start to "learn" the rules of harmony the way that all listeners of Western music have to, the melodies became more interesting, and the rhythmic simplicity became less noticeable.
-
Even within western culture. There are quite few here who don’t like classical music, presumably because it isn’t giving them what they usually appreciate or enjoy in music. Of course we all know about the opposite case, and the dismissive attitude to non classical music by those raised on the Canon.
Class and in the case of non western music, cultural attitudes also plays a role. For example, I find disassociating non western music from its ‘exotic’ orientalist associations is very difficult. But I don’t really hear that music yet, just the way it sounds to me.
Or think of the way jazz musicians tend to appreciate or play Bach through their own sensibility.
I think some of this may actually be artistically useful. I think misunderstanding something sometimes leads to something new.
-
And would you say that effect or influence was more limiting or liberating for them? Do they generally play with it and then cast it off or embrace it? Originally Posted by Otterfan
(Forgive me if I ask you, I have no real knowledge of it myself)
-
I read the article a few days ago and didn't comment because I found it completely bewildering. Noting that people are reading different things into it, I have read it again and my only firm conclusion is that it may not contain any declarative sentences with which I agree. He is not writing in E-prime, but my suspicion is that something like it seems to be going on... maybe AI assisted.
-
It didn’t seem off or AI-ish to me? Maybe I’ll have another look. Originally Posted by pauln
Oh I remember E prime. I like it a lot.
While I don’t consciously write in it these daysI found it a great exercise for sharpening my writing skills and like the way it forces me to reframe my thoughts.
It provides a great way to write job applications if nothing else, but I also think that it sensitised me to the passive voice and how corpo-speak and so on uses it to abdicate responsibility.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 02-03-2024 at 06:25 AM.
-
Never had heard about E-prime but I find it interesting. Language creates consciousness. Originally Posted by pauln
-
I lived in Southern Senegal for 10+ years, I was usually gently ribbed for playing Afro Cuban stuff, which is one of the roots of Mbalax, Senegal's own most popular music, but regarded as old fashioned. American Blues was met with confusion - 'it's all the same', Jazz led to requests to turn that noise off, although on two occasions I was asked if I could play Coltrane tracks 'without the singer' so they could hear Elvin Jones better. Coltrane got a second chance when I said his instrument was the one Jolas use in their music, where it replaces the traditional wordless women's chorus that carries the tune. Originally Posted by Otterfan
Jaliba (= big griot in Mandinka) Kouyaate (major griot family) came to see me once because a swiss woman was visiting & wanted to play with his band, he said she'd told him she could play multiple instruments & had played for him - she was classically trained & although he liked the sound of the violin he wasn't sure if she could play it..he sang a series of random unconnected pitches, complete with equally random hand gestures, to demonstrate what he'd heard.
Most of his music is (kind of) Modal, the Kora's 21 strings are tuned to a particular 'Mode' for each song . I think she'd played him some Mozart...
On the other hand I went, with Indian friends, to an all night Prop at the RAH once, it was all night so the night time Ragas could be played when they where supposed to be played, there were several moments where the whole audience let out a collective sigh, or laughed out loud or raised their hands in awe at things that went way above my head...
-
Forgot to say, Reggae & Rap music was everywhere..still is.
-
Well, the younger will be older and will say the same.
Roots ? Which roots ? Where are they ?
-
The writing is gobbledegook.
-
Originally Posted by dot75
I loved every word of this post. Fascinating. Thank you.
-
Well, you can't blame youngsters for wishing to avoid any kinds of Jazz that seem tired, lame, clichéd etc. But it's one thing to turn your nose up at Louis Jordan, but who's in a position to turn their noses up at Oliver Nelson or Wayne Shorter, or Eric Dolphy? If we're calling it Jazz, then IMHO Roots and sophistication beats cleverness for it's own sake any day. Of course, if it's not Jazz, then "Pure Music" is not really expected to contain any emotional content, and probably hasn't since Schoenberg.
I just don't get why kids wanna do "Maths Jazz", I mean, why restrict yourself? Just make "Maths Music" if you need to feel big and clever!
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale