Hagiography?*

[joelf]

I've noticed a trend in many instances, on the Web or in real time/life of idolizing rather than admiring, loving etc. musicians one favors. IMO this goes a bit overboard, and can possibly ultimately interfere with discovering and developing the artist within.

Even amateur or still-in-potential-stage players can benefit from de-pedestaling their heroes (perhaps those especially?) We all need models and influences, but when this morphs into hagiography one can get lost in that and forget to be oneself. Could this be akin to artistic suicide? Possibly. Maybe some are satisfied with trying to be the person they idolize. If they make a good job of it and sound good, fine and dandy. Good is never easy and ought to be appreciated. But why stop there?

And even great artists are only human. Could it be that the idolatry swells certain egos unduly, interfering with humility and higher uses of and purposes for their art? I wonder.

*The word 'hagiography' literally means 'biography that idolizes its subject'. That's not the exact reference for what I broach here, but the word seems to be often used to mean 'idolatry'. Plus, I like the sound and look of it.

Thoughts?

[joelf]

Someone once said 'Ego is like gas. If it gets you places that's good.' (But if you gas up don't top off)...

[mr. beaumont]

A big revelation for me was to realize that great jazz players were better than I thought they were, but also not as good as I thought they were.

If that makes any sense

(I can elaborate if anyone wants, but I like this post better as is)

[joelf]

(I can elaborate if anyone wants, but I like this post better as is)

Me want...

[Bop Head]

Is this really something new?

"Clapton is God"

Or an anecdote (from "Bird lives"? 30 years since I read it) of Dizzy Gillespie on a photo having his trouser's zip open by an oversight and al the hip cats imitating it.

(Of course both stories relate rather to passive listeners.)

[Bop Head]

In German we say "They are also only cooking with water." For me the revealtion was Barry Harris (who really idolized certain people BTW) whose teaching can lead to immediate results showing you a system of "cooking with water". Of course that does not make you a genius but if you "keep on keepin' on" things start to happen.

[joelf]

Is this really something new?

Of course not. But the Web disseminates info (and 'disinfo') faster and all these chats, etc. spread everything like wildfire.

So new, para nada. More widespread, si...

[joelf]

For me the revealtion was Barry Harris (who really idolized certain people BTW) .

I knew Barry very well, from '76 on---and loved him deeply. He was a great, great man and jazz warrior.

But, sadly, his case was a perfect example of this, as too many people lionized and worshipped him and hung on his every word, with no 'Socratic method' ever applied. Some of them were just lost lambs looking for a shepherd, and they flocked around his staff. I was there and won't B.S. about it.

The truly talented absorbed what they could from class or hanging with him, then moved on to use it to become themselves.

Not saying the above was his fault either. Icons don't always invite iconization....

[ragman1]

It's in the nature of human beings to have heroes, things to aspire to, things one wants to become. But anything in excess is detrimental, it doesn't just apply to jazz.

[pamosmusic]

This seems a little abstract. I’m honestly not really sure I’ve met a lot of folks who really idolize players the way it sounds like you mean.

I guess Barry is a good example. He’s definitely got real apostles.

But I’m not sure I really see this as a problem the way you’re describing.

You mention the internet — that seems like it would be a tempering factor to me. Like people who might worship Peter Bernstein are able to see interviews with him and probably are aware now that he might as well be their boring neighbor.

[A. Kingstone]

I knew Barry very well, from '76 on---and loved him deeply. He was a great, great man and jazz warrior.

But, sadly, his case was a perfect example of this, as too many people lionized and worshipped him and hung on his every word, with no 'Socratic method' ever applied. Some of them were just lost lambs looking for a shepherd, and they flocked around his staff. I was there and won't B.S. about it.

The truly talented absorbed what they could from class or hanging with him, then moved on to use it to become themselves.

Not saying the above was his fault either. Icons don't always invite iconization....

Barry and Howard Rees made me the player I am but I saw the truth when Barry revealed himself as a Detroit Tiger fan.

[pamosmusic]

Barry and Howard Rees made me the player I am but I saw the truth when Barry revealed himself as a Detroit Tiger fan.

I was super pumped to study with Vic Juris and went to his house for a lesson. The whole time he kept referring to “we” … we did this earlier, we just had lunch, etc … and I realized at the end of the lesson he was referring to his two labradoodles.

Didn’t really idolize him or anything … though he was one of my favorite people to learn from … but access to folks usually makes them seem more human, rather than less. And I feel like the internet does that to a degree. They’re not just That Badass Solo on That Record I Love.

[RJVB]

Thoughts?

Yeah. I'd have used a term based on the word centrefold

I never had any flat musicians on my walls or coffeemug *) but I think many if not most of my classmates did.

*) just sexy violins and a muse or two immortalised by Mucha

IOW, nothing new outside of jazz, and I'm hardly surprised it happens in jazz too. How many accounts do people like Joe Pass or Jimmy (or was it Johnny?) Smith have on here again?

[James W]

I've noticed a trend in many instances, on the Web or in real time/life of idolizing rather than admiring, loving etc. musicians one favors. IMO this goes a bit overboard, and can possibly ultimately interfere with discovering and developing the artist within.

Even amateur or still-in-potential-stage players can benefit from de-pedestaling their heroes (perhaps those especially?) We all need models and influences, but when this morphs into hagiography one can get lost in that and forget to be oneself. Could this be akin to artistic suicide? Possibly. Maybe some are satisfied with trying to be the person they idolize. If they make a good job of it and sound good, fine and dandy. Good is never easy and ought to be appreciated. But why stop there?

And even great artists are only human. Could it be that the idolatry swells certain egos unduly, interfering with humility and higher uses of and purposes for their art? I wonder.

*The word 'hagiography' literally means 'biography that idolizes its subject'. That's not the exact reference for what I broach here, but the word seems to be often used to mean 'idolatry'. Plus, I like the sound and look of it.

Thoughts?

I think it's two different things, idolising someone and actually trying to be them i.e. copying their playing and so on. Perhaps only a problem if there is only one particular musician one idolises, rather than a few?

Also, I am intrigued how you make the distinction between idolising rather than loving musicians. To me they are sort of synonymous - in any case, certainly not contradictory in the way you imply here.

[A. Kingstone]

I was super pumped to study with Vic Juris and went to his house for a lesson. The whole time he kept referring to “we” … we did this earlier, we just had lunch, etc … and I realized at the end of the lesson he was referring to his two labradoodles.

Didn’t really idolize him or anything … though he was one of my favorite people to learn from … but access to folks usually makes them seem more human, rather than less. And I feel like the internet does that to a degree. They’re not just That Badass Solo on That Record I Love.

When my book was released Vic Juris sent me a nice review out of the blue. Kind man.

[pamosmusic]

When my book was released Vic Juris sent me a nice review out of the blue. Kind man.

The kindest.

[mr. beaumont]

Me want...

So of the good players I've known, talked to, or played with...

Their reading, sense of time, tune knowledge, ability to cover mistakes, ability to make others sound good-- those things--they are off the charts good. Like scary good.

And then on the other side of the coin, they DO make mistakes. They have human feelings like doubt, insecurity, frustration. They're NOT comfortable in every situation. Sometimes they want a note or phrase "back." They have bad nights. They decline a solo when they don't know the tune well enough.

[pingu]

there are many paths to the top
of the mountain Grasshopper

[pingu]

And none of them get there ….

[ragman1]

So of the good players I've known, talked to, or played with...

Their reading, sense of time, tune knowledge, ability to cover mistakes, ability to make others sound good-- those things--they are off the charts good. Like scary good.

And then on the other side of the coin, they DO make mistakes. They have human feelings like doubt, insecurity, frustration. They're NOT comfortable in every situation. Sometimes they want a note or phrase "back." They have bad nights. They decline a solo when they don't know the tune well enough.

At last :-)

[joelf]

Also, I am intrigued how you make the distinction between idolising rather than loving musicians. To me they are sort of synonymous - in any case, certainly not contradictory in the way you imply here.

They are not to me. You can love many things, people, fire hydrants without idolizing. I'm not trying to be cute here---they're just not the same at all. Love has many forms, degrees and dimensions. I love my guitar and my brother, but idolize neither. I will love this particular woman to the end of my days, but do not idolize her.

Idolatry is more one-dimensional to me. It infers slavish devotion at the risk of losing oneself. Love doesn't (well, not always (; )...

[joelf]

And then on the other side of the coin, they DO make mistakes. They have human feelings like doubt, insecurity, frustration. They're NOT comfortable in every situation. Sometimes they want a note or phrase "back." They have bad nights. They decline a solo when they don't know the tune well enough.

I think that speaks to the insecurities of many, not only good or great players. It has more to do with psychological/personality makeup and good or bad life experiences rather than ability or lack of it.

I know one knucklehead guitar player, who's always putting his playing down, and rightfully so. He has zero talent and knows it. This saves the rest of the critical jazz world the trouble, but they join in anyway. But he loves playing and keeps at it, and I give him props for that.

And there are the great talents who do as you describe. But who knows the actual reason for their sometimes deep insecurity and ego?

Art is a complex and competitive world to dwell in, with multiple trap doors and ups and downs, and artists (and sometimes wannabe artists) can be complex, complicated people...

[mr. beaumont]

I think that speaks to the insecurities of many, not only good or great players. It has more to do with psychological/personality makeup and good or bad life experiences rather than ability or lack of it.
I know one knucklehead guitar player, who's always putting his playing down, and rightfully. He has zero talent and knows it. This saves the rest of the critical jazz world the trouble, but they join in anyway. But he loves playing and keeps at it, and I give him props for that.

And there are the great talents who do as you describe. But who knows the actual reason for their sometimes deep insecurity and ego?

Art is a complex and competitive world to dwell in, with multiple trap doors and ups and downs, and artists (and sometimes wannabe artists) can be complex, complicated people...

Oh absolutely-- my point was intended to be, those people some think are infallible-- they are human just like everyone else.

[pamosmusic]

They are not to me. You can love many things, people, fire hydrants without idolizing. I'm not trying to be cute here---they're just not the same at all. Love has many forms, degrees and dimensions. I love my guitar and my brother, but idolize neither. I will love this particular woman to the end of my days, but do not idolize her.

Idolatry is more one-dimensional to me. It infers slavish devotion at the risk of losing oneself. Love doesn't (well, not always? (; )...

Maybe it would help if you gave an example of someone who was slavishly devoted to a jazz musician at the risk of losing oneself?

[James W]

They are not to me. You can love many things, people, fire hydrants without idolizing. I'm not trying to be cute here---they're just not the same at all. Love has many forms, degrees and dimensions. I love my guitar and my brother, but idolize neither. I will love this particular woman to the end of my days, but do not idolize her.

Idolatry is more one-dimensional to me. It infers slavish devotion at the risk of losing oneself. Love doesn't (well, not always? (; )...

Ah, ok - I see now what you mean. But I think it's quite a rare thing? I mean, I've heard it said that it's a sensible stage to go through - of copying a player or players. I guess some might not progress past that part, but slavish devotion seems antithetical to the sensibilities of jazz.