-
12-04-2023, 08:42 PM #1joelf Guest
I've noticed a trend in many instances, on the Web or in real time/life of idolizing rather than admiring, loving etc. musicians one favors. IMO this goes a bit overboard, and can possibly ultimately interfere with discovering and developing the artist within.
Even amateur or still-in-potential-stage players can benefit from de-pedestaling their heroes (perhaps those especially?) We all need models and influences, but when this morphs into hagiography one can get lost in that and forget to be oneself. Could this be akin to artistic suicide? Possibly. Maybe some are satisfied with trying to be the person they idolize. If they make a good job of it and sound good, fine and dandy. Good is never easy and ought to be appreciated. But why stop there?
And even great artists are only human. Could it be that the idolatry swells certain egos unduly, interfering with humility and higher uses of and purposes for their art? I wonder.
*The word 'hagiography' literally means 'biography that idolizes its subject'. That's not the exact reference for what I broach here, but the word seems to be often used to mean 'idolatry'. Plus, I like the sound and look of it.
Thoughts?
-
12-04-2023 08:42 PM
-
12-04-2023, 08:59 PM #2joelf Guest
Someone once said 'Ego is like gas. If it gets you places that's good.' (But if you gas up don't top off)...
-
A big revelation for me was to realize that great jazz players were better than I thought they were, but also not as good as I thought they were.
If that makes any sense
(I can elaborate if anyone wants, but I like this post better as is)
-
12-05-2023, 12:23 AM #4joelf GuestOriginally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
Is this really something new?
"Clapton is God"
Or an anecdote (from "Bird lives"? 30 years since I read it) of Dizzy Gillespie on a photo having his trouser's zip open by an oversight and al the hip cats imitating it.
(Of course both stories relate rather to passive listeners.)
-
In German we say "They are also only cooking with water." For me the revealtion was Barry Harris (who really idolized certain people BTW) whose teaching can lead to immediate results showing you a system of "cooking with water". Of course that does not make you a genius but if you "keep on keepin' on" things start to happen.
-
12-05-2023, 12:34 AM #7joelf GuestOriginally Posted by Bop Head
So new, para nada. More widespread, si...
-
12-05-2023, 12:46 AM #8joelf GuestOriginally Posted by Bop Head
But, sadly, his case was a perfect example of this, as too many people lionized and worshipped him and hung on his every word, with no 'Socratic method' ever applied. Some of them were just lost lambs looking for a shepherd, and they flocked around his staff. I was there and won't B.S. about it.
The truly talented absorbed what they could from class or hanging with him, then moved on to use it to become themselves.
Not saying the above was his fault either. Icons don't always invite iconization....
-
It's in the nature of human beings to have heroes, things to aspire to, things one wants to become. But anything in excess is detrimental, it doesn't just apply to jazz.
-
This seems a little abstract. I’m honestly not really sure I’ve met a lot of folks who really idolize players the way it sounds like you mean.
I guess Barry is a good example. He’s definitely got real apostles.
But I’m not sure I really see this as a problem the way you’re describing.
You mention the internet — that seems like it would be a tempering factor to me. Like people who might worship Peter Bernstein are able to see interviews with him and probably are aware now that he might as well be their boring neighbor.
-
Originally Posted by joelf
-
Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Didn’t really idolize him or anything … though he was one of my favorite people to learn from … but access to folks usually makes them seem more human, rather than less. And I feel like the internet does that to a degree. They’re not just That Badass Solo on That Record I Love.Last edited by pamosmusic; 12-05-2023 at 09:24 AM.
-
Originally Posted by joelf
I never had any flat musicians on my walls or coffeemug *) but I think many if not most of my classmates did.
*) just sexy violins and a muse or two immortalised by Mucha
IOW, nothing new outside of jazz, and I'm hardly surprised it happens in jazz too. How many accounts do people like Joe Pass or Jimmy (or was it Johnny?) Smith have on here again?
-
Originally Posted by joelf
Also, I am intrigued how you make the distinction between idolising rather than loving musicians. To me they are sort of synonymous - in any case, certainly not contradictory in the way you imply here.
-
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
-
Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
-
Originally Posted by joelf
Their reading, sense of time, tune knowledge, ability to cover mistakes, ability to make others sound good-- those things--they are off the charts good. Like scary good.
And then on the other side of the coin, they DO make mistakes. They have human feelings like doubt, insecurity, frustration. They're NOT comfortable in every situation. Sometimes they want a note or phrase "back." They have bad nights. They decline a solo when they don't know the tune well enough.
-
there are many paths to the top
of the mountain Grasshopper
-
And none of them get there ….
-
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
12-05-2023, 12:49 PM #21joelf GuestOriginally Posted by James W
Idolatry is more one-dimensional to me. It infers slavish devotion at the risk of losing oneself. Love doesn't (well, not always (; )...Last edited by joelf; 12-17-2023 at 07:42 AM.
-
12-05-2023, 01:00 PM #22joelf GuestOriginally Posted by mr. beaumont
I know one knucklehead guitar player, who's always putting his playing down, and rightfully so. He has zero talent and knows it. This saves the rest of the critical jazz world the trouble, but they join in anyway. But he loves playing and keeps at it, and I give him props for that.
And there are the great talents who do as you describe. But who knows the actual reason for their sometimes deep insecurity and ego?
Art is a complex and competitive world to dwell in, with multiple trap doors and ups and downs, and artists (and sometimes wannabe artists) can be complex, complicated people...Last edited by joelf; 12-17-2023 at 07:43 AM.
-
Originally Posted by joelf
-
Originally Posted by joelf
-
Originally Posted by joelf
Roman Dodecahedron (12 sided) die discovered,...
Today, 11:16 AM in Everything Else