Hagiography?*

joelf · 12-07-2023, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

The problem with hagiography is it may limit learning opportunities from the master. The worship attitude leads to putting too much emphasis on the specifics at the expense of the spirit of the teachings and core ideas that lead the master to those specifics in the first place.

Bingo!

'Do as I say, not as I do'---Charles Christopher Parker...

**docsteve** · 12-07-2023, 08:41 AM

I think a salient example, has already been mentioned: the worship that Barry Harris receives from some people.

Other than that, look at the YouTube commentaries. Even a mediocre offering like the latest Beatles single drew masses of commentaries like “unsurpassed, masters”, “masterpiece“, not to mention all the love declarations.

This is not imitation, this is uncritical hero worship.

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**Christian Miller** · 12-07-2023, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by joelf

Agree with 2 and 3: in these days of modern tech and codified teaching methods we do live in a more cookie-cutter jazz world.

But not in every case, and amen to that! Last night I played with 20-somethings in Hartford, CT. They swung, knew tradition w/o copying any particular model, knew some tunes and played them authoritatively and with a sensitive front-line blend---and were all working assiduously to find their individual voices. This was nourishment for my soul! I had a ball, and left feeling great about the future of our music...

I have a feeling if we could travel back in time to the halcyon year 1952 or whatever, we’d find ourselves swimming in now forgotten Bird clones….

joelf · 12-07-2023, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by docsteve

Other than that, look at the YouTube commentaries. Even a mediocre offering like the latest Beatles single drew masses of commentaries like “unsurpassed, masters”, “masterpiece“, not to mention all the love declarations.

This is not imitation, this is uncritical hero worship. Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

A huge element in hagiography---especially in pop culture is the utter whorishness of the media. People in media can be ambitious and consider themselves rising stars. The deal of their ascent can often be best sealed when they trumpet the 'next big thing' and later crow about how right they were. This can ensure their place as prescient trend makers.

Or the opposite happens: they read the groundswell of popularity beginning in someone by the masses, and go into overdrive singing his praises. All the cliches of greatness-proclamation are again brought out, ensuring the job security or ascent of these whorish scribes or TV/Net bullhorn screamers.

So 2 (or more) stars are thereby born...

joelf · 12-07-2023, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

I have a feeling if we could travel back in time to the halcyon year 1952 or whatever, we’d find ourselves swimming in now forgotten Bird clones….

We could indeed---but why would you quote me saying these younguns are finding their voices to make that point?

**Christian Miller** · 12-07-2023, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by joelf

We could indeed---but why would you quote me saying these younguns are finding their voices to make that point?

Well my point is maybe the present is basically the same as the past. You always hear the older generation complaining for example. There’s been screeds of that nature written since ancient times. And people always moan about modern music…

**pamosmusic** · 12-07-2023, 10:44 AM

A complete catalogue of the examples provided of this phenomenon:

1. Barry Harris acolytes.
2. A guy who sounds like Michael Brecker.
3. Early Segovia disciples.
4. Barry Harris acolytes.

**A. Kingstone** · 12-07-2023, 11:05 AM

All hail!

**Christian Miller** · 12-07-2023, 11:11 AM

Remember this?

**pamosmusic** · 12-07-2023, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by A. Kingstone

All hail!

(Genuflects)

**Bop Head** · 12-07-2023, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

A complete catalogue of the examples provided of this phenomenon:

1. Barry Harris acolytes.
2. A guy who sounds like Michael Brecker.
3. Early Segovia disciples.
4. Barry Harris acolytes.

Uncomplete without the beboppers wearing an open trouser flly like Dizzy ...

**pamosmusic** · 12-07-2023, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Bop Head

Uncomplete without the beboppers wearing an open trouser flly like Dizzy ...

Great point.

By my count, the old folks are way more into hero worship than us young guns.

**deacon Mark** · 12-07-2023, 02:57 PM

Idolizing the greats is very dangerous. In the todays cancel culture it is easy to point out great and historic jazz musicians who were less than stellar humans regarding the way of life they led. This goes without saying on many people in general, but I can easily point to some jazz musicians who I would really never care to meet or have met. I fact some of the most influential in my playing are the polar opposite of own outlook on life and the way that I live. It is best to keep an open mind.

I don't really care if they were some of the finest improvisors and giants in music. If they live in a state of trouble or get hung up in all the addictions and distractions that get humans in trouble, I simply say they have musical ability. That does not make or break anyone. I met one famous jazz guitarist who will remain anonymous, and he was egotistical and quite full of himself. He knew others look up to him and he wore the tee-shirt " I know I am good." One great guitarist who did not do this and was a true giant and quite humble and nice, was Johnny Smith. I will also say Joe Pass was that way too the few times I met him very humble. Joe went down the wrong path at first and thankfully found a better one.

Be careful what you read about others for sure.

joelf · 12-07-2023, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

You always hear the older generation complaining for example.

I'm old but 'hung up my cleats'. You can call me an a^^hole emeritus

or The Yid who's No Longer a Kid...

joelf · 12-07-2023, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by deacon Mark

Idolizing the greats is very dangerous...I don't really care if they were some of the finest improvisors and giants in music. If they live in a state of trouble or get hung up in all the addictions and distractions that get humans in trouble, I simply say they have musical ability....

This is why Charlie Parker told followers 'Do as I say, not as I do'. What he did, other than be an all-time great, included borrowing some of their horns and pawning them for dope money. (To be fair, he also pawned his own). And he did way worse. From what I've heard 2 major things contributed to his early demise (other than wasting his body and mind with those multiple indulgences): the death of his infant daughter while he was away, and guilt over so many of his followers getting strung out, partly b/c they thought it would make them play as well as him. He felt very guilty and burdened by this (more than I can say about Chet Baker over his misdeeds).

Addiction definitely is an illness, but a conniving, deceitful nature can come with the territory. Also a use of charm that can be manipulative and even getting off on the hero worship, or worse, using the worshippers for their own ends. I was friendly with Stanley Crouch, and he observed to me that both Parker and Baker had soft, indulgent mothers who treated them like princes. This seems to have created a feeling that all great things would always be given to and due them. I think shrinks call this phenomena---the charm, the expectation, the manipulativeness---a 'psychopathic personality'---but I'm not 100% sure of this.

I was tight with an alto player who was an underground legend in NY. Everyone loved him, including myself. His many good points included total purity of spirit and dedication to the art; uber-high intellect; a great relationship with his mate---I never saw 2 people more in love---and loyalty to his friends; (you'd get on his bad side if you said one bad word about any of them---as I found out when I made that mistake). But he was a heroin addict, and that superseded the above. He didn't steal or pawn cats' horns, but he turned on the charm and put on his conniving hat to get the green when it was time to cop---which was often. He told me he would sell drugs for gangsters and when he got his cut told them he'd taken cabs to deliver the goods when he'd actually walked. Then he pocketed the extra bread. He was laughing as he told me this, like it was great fun to get over on and beat people.

Not this friend, but lots of great (and less than great) artists who are also users come under that heading of thriving on that hero worship and pillaging the worshippers. And there seems to be no shortage of those worshippers who are more than willing to open that trap door and fall in...