Hagiography?*

[ragman1]

I think at the bottom of this is the question of creativity. One cannot be an imitator, an idol-worshipper or a slavish devotee and open the creative door.

[Alter]

Not Hagiography (which is a Greek word that actually means drawing or writing about saints), but at some point, i surely felt (and still do) enormous respect towards a number of virtuoso players, when i realized the amount of talent, dedication and mostly hard continuous work involved in reaching and maintaining such levels of playing! Meeting some of them in Boston, New York and abroad, they were usually (if not always) down to earth and very positive vibe people.

I mean, watching a player who's been at it for decades, still struggles to fill a small room like we do, has reached a level of musicianship that i will never reach (always hoping though! ), and still talks passionately about practicing and improving, music, etc.. that kind of does feel religious for me!

[John A.]

I don't think there's a trend toward idolization of jazz players. I think it's a phenomenon that has always happened. I don't know how to measure how common it is, but my guess is that with the general deprecation of jazz musicians' place in society (or US society at any rate) there's probably less of it than there used to be. I can't think of anyone in today's jazz world who has spawned a cult of devotees trying to copy both the music and the persona the way people did with, say Parker.

Also, we now have phenomena like fairly big names in the jazz world being reachable online for lessons. social media for more general sorts of contact, doing youtube instructional videos from their (usually modest) homes, etc. I think that tends to reduce their godlike greatness quite a bit. But it also lets us see just how disciplined and knowledgeable some of these people are, and how deeply ingrained that is. So I think you're more likely to have a more balanced view of jazz stars than you might have in another epoch.

[James W]

So I think you're more likely to have a more balanced view of jazz stars than you might have in another epoch.

True. There's been a lot of demystification which is a very positive thing...

[Litterick]

Sheila Jordan:

"Support the music until it can support you," she says. "And you know what? It might never support you, but if you love it, you'll keep doing it because you won't want to give it up."

[AllanAllen]

Maybe it would help if you gave an example of someone who was slavishly devoted to a jazz musician at the risk of losing oneself?

That’s easy, someone who does heroin to sound more like Parker or Coltrane.

[pamosmusic]

That’s easy, someone who does heroin to sound more like Parker or Coltrane.

Should I interpret this as a cry for help?

[Gabor]

Is this really something new?

"Clapton is God"

Or an anecdote (from "Bird lives"? 30 years since I read it) of Dizzy Gillespie on a photo having his trouser's zip open by an oversight and al the hip cats imitating it.

(Of course both stories relate rather to passive listeners.)

yes this is completely new in its quantity. It is the consequence of the speed and fluent way how information and communication is happen nowadays. Because this tight coupling, people starts behave like masses (meaning: stupid, histeric, amplified emotions) in the normal everyday life too. 50 years ago, this behavior was only possible when mass of people were physically connected in a venue, like stadium. Now we can observe the signs, how the half world starts to show those symptom, just sitting home with a phone in hands...

[pamosmusic]

I still feel like I’m waiting for an example here. Like … who are we talking about? Kids in college? Actual gigging musicians? The ravenous jazz fans?

Im around a lot of jazz folks and have been in lots of situations with jazz folks and I’m having trouble even coming up with a hypothetical example of this that sounds realistic.

i have a buddy who sometimes buys a new pick when he finds out what a guitar player he likes is using. But we can’t be talking about that can we?

To put it bluntly … this all reads like a high minded “kids these days” thread to me.

[princeplanet]

New trend you say? Hmmm, I'm not so sure. Now if we say "Old trend", then yeah, absolutely. But are we blindly idolising that which we are closer to in potential than we realise? Or are we simply acknowledging rare greatness that is simply out of the reach of most (say, 99.9%) people? Some people are just extremely gifted, so in music you may have someone who does not only possess absolute pitch, but also a photographic memory. An even smaller subset of this rare group might also have impeccable taste is his/her music choices that wins admiration from peers.

Us mere mortals are kidding ourselves if we think we can touch that space, in the same way that the suburban chess club champion is totally outclassed on the world stage, despite studying chess daily for decades.

So yeah, we have our "Grand Masters", not to discourage us, nor even to inspire us. They just aim to entertain us, albeit on a very high level! Best not to compare yourself to them, but it's certainly fine, IMHO, to acknowledge, admire or even worship them! Besides, most top tier Jazz musicians do not receive enough acknowledgment commensurate with their rare skills, so the admiration of others, even if "over the top", is often their only reward.

Why would you wish to deprive them of that?

[joelf]

...doing youtube instructional videos from their (usually modest) homes, etc. I think that tends to reduce their godlike greatness quite a bit.

Yeah, well life can kick asses sometimes---can't it?

That can lead to humility, which can come at a cost. Sometimes bitterness, too. But I've always maintained that no one to my knowledge has ever put a gun to anyone's head and said 'Either be an artist or I pull the trigger right now'. It's a calling that one must love, perhaps above all else. Once you decide to take that ride there has to be a total commitment, and an understanding that in most cases there will be privation and great sacrifice. Maybe the entire output of a great artist will be under the radar for his or her entire life.

Then why do it at all? Well, the upside: the intense joy and satisfaction that creating something beautiful and useful can bring; the ability to uplift other people; the satisfaction that comes from doing something one loves (and the energizing challenge of working to improve at it), when many others may be stuck in jobs they don't want to be in but have to for their survival or that of their families.

Yes, we're lucky. I meet or observe all the time people who look at musicians with awe, even jealousy. They are amazed that we can do this and wish they could too. Maybe they had music class in school or other exposure, and their memories or dreams are rekindled when they hear good music (especially live, where they can see and hear up close just how much really goes into it---how much it takes to do it well).

We have to ask ourselves what are the real reasons for and the real purpose of doing this? Yes, we're self-absorbed but the effect of this introspection on our work and lives can also be unselfish, looking at it in the right way. Myself, I've sacrificed much and am not well-off financially or better-known, but rich in spirit and in the gifted and special people I've known through being a jazz musician. They were poor, too---but pure. (And it works both ways: they've gotten something from knowing me too, or they wouldn't have given so much).

The rewards include knowing you're good even as you want and need to get better, and the feeling you get when your betters give approbation to your work. That can go a long way toward lifting the spirit through tough times. You always will have that, and it's priceless.

I've known these things, and they have meant so much. But the unselfish aspect has after these many years has come to mean the most to me. The 'workaday' gigs where I'm there to give people that 'healing feeling', like my work for the Jazz Foundation playing for the sick and scared in hospitals or healthcare facilities, though not leading to fame or fortune, helps others and gives me great fulfillment.

I wouldn't trade my life with anyone's...

[lawson-stone]

Is this really something new?

"Clapton is God"

Or an anecdote (from "Bird lives"? 30 years since I read it) of Dizzy Gillespie on a photo having his trouser's zip open by an oversight and al the hip cats imitating it.

(Of course both stories relate rather to passive listeners.)

One of my guitar teachers was talking about the near idolatry of Segovia among classical players. He said he knew people who, if Segovia sniffed during a performance, they would sniff at the exact same spot every time they played that piece. He seems to have attracted a lot of hero-worship, likely because he deserved a great deal of it.

[Tal_175]

The problem with hagiography is it may limit learning opportunities from the master. The worship attitude leads to putting too much emphasis on the specifics at the expense of the spirit of the teachings and core ideas that lead the master to those specifics in the first place.

[Sam Sherry]

I still feel like I’m waiting for an example here.

OK, try this: There are many tenor players who drank deeply from the Well of Brecker, and with good reason.

Chris Potter and Branford Marsalis can each 'do' a scary-good Brecker when they want to, but they each bring to much more than that.
But Bob Berg . . . tremendous player, by all reports a really nice person, but all I hear is Brecker.
I dunno, maybe he died to early to break away.

[AllanAllen]

Should I interpret this as a cry for help?

No, you have to practice to sound good. I've been around enough to see the only thing substances do is make someone think they're better than they are.

[ragman1]

*hic* :-)

[John A.]

OK, try this: There are many tenor players who drank deeply from the Well of Brecker, and with good reason.

Chris Potter and Branford Marsalis can each 'do' a scary-good Brecker when they want to, but they each bring to much more than that.
But Bob Berg . . . tremendous player, by all reports a really nice person, but all I hear is Brecker.
I dunno, maybe he died to early to break away.

I'm not sure about that example. There's definitely a lot of similarity between the two, but I think that may be more a product of shared influences and circumstance than of one copying the other. Ditto for a few other players who sound a lot like this, are contemporaries of Brecker, and swam in the same waters (e.g., Bob Mintzer, Bob Malach). Younger copycats are maybe a different story.

[joelf]

This conversation is drifting from my OP premise---which is perfectly cool, BTW.

Maybe I didn't make my point all that well. I wasn't thinking of the pros. One time Les Spann told me 'I'm not original, but I copy good'. There's idolatry and then there's reverence. The folks mentioned here thus far are IMO reverent, not slavish devotees.

I was thinking more of younger and perhaps not quite professional folks who idolize, lionize and try to ape their heroes and sheroes. The Web is full of such folks, including on here sometimes TBH.

That's cool as a phase, even necessary. But if it morphs into a long-term way of life...

[John A.]

This conversation is drifting from my OP premise---which is perfectly cool, BTW.

Maybe I didn't make my point all that well. I wasn't thinking of the pros. One time Les Spann told me 'I'm not original, but I copy good'. There's idolatry and then there's reverence. The folks mentioned here thus far are IMO reverent, not slavish devotees.

I was thinking more of younger and perhaps not quite professional folks who idolize, lionize and try to ape their heroes and sheroes. The Web is full of such folks, including on here sometimes TBH.

That's cool as a phase, even necessary. But if it morphs into a long-term way of life...

In general, people imitate as a point of entry to learning, and then move on. However, online is not a representative sample of the world of people studying/playing music with and in front of other people. Almost by definition people who don't do much of that and/or have obsessions and eccentricities are over-represented. So, sure, there are a zillion videos of someone playing recordings note for note imitating someone else's style, but I don't think you can draw many conclusions from that.

[Jimmy Smith]

I doubt being able to sound exactly like a great ever made anyone worse off as a musician.

[pamosmusic]

This conversation is drifting from my OP premise---which is perfectly cool, BTW.

Maybe I didn't make my point all that well. I wasn't thinking of the pros. One time Les Spann told me 'I'm not original, but I copy good'. There's idolatry and then there's reverence. The folks mentioned here thus far are IMO reverent, not slavish devotees.

I was thinking more of younger and perhaps not quite professional folks who idolize, lionize and try to ape their heroes and sheroes. The Web is full of such folks, including on here sometimes TBH.

That's cool as a phase, even necessary. But if it morphs into a long-term way of life...

Again ... maybe an example would help?

Kids these days ...

[joelf]

In general, people imitate as a point of entry to learning, and then move on. However, online is not a representative sample of the world of people studying/playing music with and in front of other people. Almost by definition people who don't do much of that and/or have obsessions and eccentricities are over-represented. So, sure, there are a zillion videos of someone playing recordings note for note imitating someone else's style, but I don't think you can draw many conclusions from that.

True dat..

[Litterick]

Dweezil Zappa makes a living by imitating his father, but in his spare time he imitates Eddie Van Halen.

.

[Average Joe]

I'm not sure I'm hearing the players that are carbon copies of other. Maybe my ears aren't sharp enough to pick them out. If there is a sameness to modern players, I've always figured it was 1. just me not getting it, being behind the times; 2. an increasing streamlined curriculum, jazz players increasingly being educated into the art, and jazz education all over the world teaching pretty much the same thing; 3. shared influences.

[joelf]

I'm not sure I'm hearing the players that are carbon copies of other. Maybe my ears aren't sharp enough to pick them out. If there is a sameness to modern players, I've always figured it was 1. just me not getting it, being behind the times; 2. an increasing streamlined curriculum, jazz players increasing bein educated into the art, and jazz education all over the world teaching pretty much the same thing; 3. shared influences.

Agree with 2 and 3: in these days of modern tech and codified teaching methods we do live in a more cookie-cutter jazz world.

But not in every case, and amen to that! Last night I played with 20-somethings in Hartford, CT. They swung, knew tradition w/o copying any particular model, knew some tunes and played them authoritatively and with a sensitive front-line blend---and were all working assiduously to find their individual voices. This was nourishment for my soul! I had a ball, and left feeling great about the future of our music...