Fat guitars, sore shoulders

[fep]

I've been having right shoulder pain, lack of range of motion, shoulder impingement.

Maybe guitar playing has been a cause?

I've found that playing a wide guitar like my dreadnaught creates immediate right shoulder pain (image 1)

If I put it in a classical guitar position, no pain (image 2)

If I play my tele with performaxe attachment, no pain (image 3)

Notice the angles of my upper arm.

Got me wondering if wide body guitars are hard on the shoulder.

What are your thoughts? Anyone else experience this?

[Gilpy]

I don't know if thick guitars are the cause of shoulder pain, but they can definitely make it worse. That's why I play smaller guitars these days.

[thelostboss]

I've been having right shoulder pain, lack of range of motion, shoulder impingement.

Maybe guitar playing has been a cause?

What are your thoughts? Anyone else experience this?

Certainly was an issue for me and the reason I stopped playing flattops, changing to a more semi-classical position with a strap has helped a lot.

[PaulD]

I rarely play my 175 these days specifically because of the shoulder pain I experience. I have a similar although not as bad issue with my 335 when sitting. Even though it's thin it has a wide body. I can play my Tele or my GB10 for hours without any shoulder issues. Lower back is a different story, regardless of guitar, whether sitting or standing.

[ragman1]

I play a dreadnought all the time, no problem.

I notice that the bottom curve of the guitar isn't resting fully on your thigh. That pushes the the guitar back a bit which in turn moves your shoulder back. That's not a restful angle (unlike the other pictures).

If I do it, I can immediately feel a slight strain and playing then exacerbates that tension. So moving the guitar forward might help that. Of course, if your shoulder's already strained it won't magically disappear but it might make a difference in a short time. Resting it for a while before you begin again is a good idea.

The other thing is, have you ever injured or strained that shoulder before in your life? Joints are fragile things.

[darkwaters]

Yep. Same issue. I’ve, sadly, had to retire my 30 year old Takamine steel string. It’s dreadnaught size and after about 10 minutes playing it, my right shoulder starts to ache. I can feel it pushing my arm/shoulder up and away from my body. Totally uncomfortable.

My parlour acoustic and nylon string give me no such discomfort. Same with my electric solid bodies, even my Epi Dot, which is a somewhat cumbersome beast.

Oh well….

[MarkRhodes]

I have never had trouble with my right shoulder, but my left shoulder has given me trouble, esp with my PRS. It's a heavy guitar. That's why I switched to a harness strap----it distributes weight to both shoulders (and there's a heel strap around one's midsection that also bears weight.)

I have no affiliation with this company. I just bought one of their straps and I'm glad I did.
Two points: 1) they ain't cheap (-but I don't expect to wear it out, so it should be a lifetime purchase) and 2) it takes some getting used to.

[Cunamara]

A few years ago, I was finding that my archtop and dreadnought guitars seemed to be causing right shoulder pain. My doctor referred me to an orthopedist, who did an x-ray and found that I have arthritis in one of those joints in my shoulder. She sent me to a physical therapist who specializes in shoulders, whom I saw about once a week for six weeks with a lot of exercises to do at home. Three years later, I no longer have shoulder pain while playing. The underlying cause was not the guitar; it was the arthritis (I separated the shoulder in 1999, which is probably the underlying cause).

I find that if I tip the guitar back, setting it a little out from my body rather than having it up snug against me, that also helps change the angle of my shoulder to make things more comfortable. It's sort of the old swing rhythm guitar position, which allows the back to vibrate rather than being pushed up against my torso. Not quite as extreme as Freddie Green.

About 15 years ago I was having low back pain and sciatica; I got sent to the physical therapist for that, too, and they gave me management tools/exercises to prevent and recover from flareups. Needless to say, I am a huge fan of physical therapy because it's been so helpful for me.

[John A.]

I have chronic right shoulder problems, and large/deep guitars hurt. I can handle a large but thin body, or a small but deep body. But certain combinations of the two dimensions, in combination with body style cause a lot of discomfort.

I’ve found the dreadnought style to be the worst. I switched to a smaller bodied flattop ("grand orchestra" size), which I play high up on a strap. No problems with that.

[fep]

I play a dreadnought all the time, no problem.

I notice that the bottom curve of the guitar isn't resting fully on your thigh. That pushes the the guitar back a bit which in turn moves your shoulder back. That's not a restful angle (unlike the other pictures).

If I do it, I can immediately feel a slight strain and playing then exacerbates that tension. So moving the guitar forward might help that. Of course, if your shoulder's already strained it won't magically disappear but it might make a difference in a short time. Resting it for a while before you begin again is a good idea.

The other thing is, have you ever injured or strained that shoulder before in your life? Joints are fragile things.

I do remember injuring my shoulder with a really awkward fall around 1978. It was a surfing fall, while being flipped around with my arms covering the top of my head, I hit the bottom with my arms, this forced my right arm back behind my head. That was pretty much the end of me being able to throw a football or baseball with any velocity,

The read circle bit, yes that's unusually. I'm trying to get a more comfortable position and lowering the angle of my upper arm by pushing the bout of the guitar back.

[fep]

A few years ago, I was finding that my archtop and dreadnought guitars seemed to be causing right shoulder pain. My doctor referred me to an orthopedist, who did an x-ray and found that I have arthritis in one of those joints in my shoulder. She sent me to a physical therapist who specializes in shoulders, whom I saw about once a week for six weeks with a lot of exercises to do at home. Three years later, I no longer have shoulder pain while playing. The underlying cause was not the guitar; it was the arthritis (I separated the shoulder in 1999, which is probably the underlying cause).

I find that if I tip the guitar back, setting it a little out from my body rather than having it up snug against me, that also helps change the angle of my shoulder to make things more comfortable. It's sort of the old swing rhythm guitar position, which allows the back to vibrate rather than being pushed up against my torso. Not quite as extreme as Freddie Green.

About 15 years ago I was having low back pain and sciatica; I got sent to the physical therapist for that, too, and they gave me management tools/exercises to prevent and recover from flareups. Needless to say, I am a huge fan of physical therapy because it's been so helpful for me.

Thanks for that. I've done two weekly sessions of physical therapy so far and have them scheduled going forward.

[fep]

Yep. Same issue. I’ve, sadly, had to retire my 30 year old Takamine steel string. It’s dreadnaught size and after about 10 minutes playing it, my right shoulder starts to ache. I can feel it pushing my arm/shoulder up and away from my body. Totally uncomfortable.

My parlour acoustic and nylon string give me no such discomfort. Same with my electric solid bodies, even my Epi Dot, which is a somewhat cumbersome beast.

Oh well….

Ha... That's a Takamine dreadnaught from about 1974 in that picture. I guess it's nearly 50 years old and is the first guitar I purchased myself (I had a cheepo hand my down before that). Those are known as "lawsuit" guitars.

And as an aside, that's why I have so many guitars. I've been buying guitars for a long time and have only sold a couple of them over the years. I tell my wife I've only bought about one guitar every 5 years on average.

[fep]

fep -

It's not really possible to diagnose a pain like this at a distance, even if we were specialists. In fact, a specialist wouldn't even try. A previous injury is nearly almost always the cause.

You say you're having physical therapy but not what it is. It could be physio, osteopathy, chiropractic, or something else. But I think the real point is to find out what's going on in there. For that I'd recommend an osteopathic doctor or surgeon. Personally, I'd have it thoroughly examined and X-rayed.

You say you're having this physical therapy bi-weekly but you're still playing and you still have pain. I'm not sure that there's much point in that. Is the shoulder strapped up?

After all, a zillion people play guitar without a problem so guitar playing in itself is unlikely to be the root cause. Of course, it's human nature not to want to look too closely in case it turns out to be something more serious than a wrong playing position. I mean, you saw what Cunamara said about arthritis.

So, long-term, personally, I think you ought to have it properly examined by a doctor or surgeon. Physiotherapists, even good ones, aren't necessarily the answer here.

Sorry, I don't mean to go at it like a bull in a china shop :-)

I have been to the doctor. It has been x-rayed which didn't show anything including no arthritis. I did say in the OP they believe I have shoulder impingement which is a medical term. My symptoms are consistent with shoulder impingement.

My physical therapy is physiotherapist. I see him weekly.

I'm not to do anything that causes pain. I do not play the dreadnaught in that position (image 1).

[grahambop]

I recently got out my old dreadnought (Suzuki 3S, haven’t played it for years) and found it eventually got really uncomfortable playing it on my right leg. Never used to be like that, so must be an age thing. I was trying to play a complicated John Renbourn piece which probably didn’t help.

Anyway I tried shifting it to the classical guitar position (left leg + cushion or footstool), and then it was fine, I could play it for hours. I do play classical guitar quite a lot so I have worked out the most comfortable position for that, classical guitar can also cause aches and pains very easily if I’m not careful. Again an age thing I suspect.

For the same reason I always use a strap on my ES175 even when sitting down. I used to play that on my right leg too, but started to get backache doing that.

[JazzIsGood]

I had some pain in the upper back and shoulder from long 3 hour gigs and long practice sessions. I went to PT and got some tips that could help lots of us. I think a lot of us get shoulder pain because this type of music requires so many hours of practice and the gigs are long. For me it was the rhomboid and upper trap that were getting sore on the right side. Here's what the PT guy told me-

1- sitting still makes the muscles weak. He gave me a bunch of exercises to simply get those muscles moving and strengthen them.

2- Do not sit in one position very long. Once I implemented this, 80% of the problem went away. Even at gigs, I will switch from normal sitting posture to classical style, or leaning back, or any other posture every 5 - 10 minutes. If I'm laying out for a bass solo I will take my right hand off the guitar and let it relax at my side.

3- I have found that in general working out and keeping the entire body strong helps. This gets harder as we are all getting older but it only takes 15 minutes a day to lift some weights and go for a quick run. Changing up the workout often has been a good strategy for me.

4- Changing guitars often can help, as it puts your body in different postitions. I got from a big archtop to a solid body then switch back.

5- In my case I had to reduce my practice time and gigs temporarily. I know it seems unthinkable to most of us but that's what it takes sometimes. I'm taking a few months to let things get back to normal. I'm practicing stuff that isn't too strenuous and learning new things that can be learned in 30 minutes per day. I think I can rebuild speed and chops in a week or two when the time comes.

Please share your tips, this forum would benefit from a thread focused on shoulder pain, hand pain. etc.

[Cunamara]

Three old Takamines in the crowd here! Mine is a 1978 F340S, my first guitar which I bought around Thanksgiving of 1979.

[ruger9]

Fat guitars = shoulder pain when you have impingement or rotator cuff tendonitis tear = YES!!!

I just went through this. I had a slight (no operation) tear in my rotator cuff, along with tendonitis of the rotator cuff and bicep. In the end, it took a year and a half to be 100% over it. I was caused by overuse at work, not by playing large guitars. I'm a medium build: 5'8", so I'm not short but I'm also not tall with long arms...

But when I window shopped for archtops while having this injury/pain, I was looking at thin lines and smaller lower bouts, because even my Gretsch (16" bout, 2-1/2" deep), was causing discomfort. I can report that, after my shoulder issues finally resolved, I can play it fine now, no issues. I'm not looking at 18", 3-3/8" deep Super 400s or anything tho LOL

[Gitfiddler]

I have right AND left shoulder issues, likely caused by long-past youth sports injuries. Even though I love the tone of a wide bodied 3" - 4" acoustic or archtop, I can't handle it for more than an hour. After having a right shoulder surgery for a torn rotator cuff 5 years ago, pain-free playing returned. Now the left shoulder needs a regular regime of physical therapy to keep the pain under control.

My solution was to steer clear of fat bodied guitars as often as possible, and play wide body guitars in a standing position. That moves the guitar away from certain painful angles.

As stated above, finding a comfortable strap is a great start. A taller seat can also help.

The PT may be necessary for a while, but hopefully your shoulder discomfort will diminish over time.

These steps helped me continue to enjoy playing all sizes of guitars. I hope they help fep as well.

[StoneWaller]

Something a little bit in my wheel house. The strenuous life has left me with shoulder impingement as well, and large bodied guitars do exasperate the discomfort if not careful. I end up rolling my shoulder toward the guitar causing internal rotation - hence the impingement. (And why I ultimately settled on a super slim archtop) The same thing is a very common form error in the bench press, and if you ask 9 guys out of 10 that are heavy benchers, I bet they'll all have trashed shoulders, partly from this same internally rotated position.

Two things helped me immensely. *Disclaimer, I'm not a doctor or PT Just a physical guy who has made it his business to know some of these hacks for better quality of life...I try to avoid getting cut unless it's absolutely necessary.

1: hanging from a bar at least a few minutes a day. This essentially creates space by stretching out the joint. If your grip can't support your body weight, use a lower bar to hang from and use your legs for support.

2: very gentle internal and external rotation excercises with light resistance bands. You can find the how to images or videos with a Google search pretty easily.

There's tons of other PT exercises out there, but those two worked best for me. And as others have said, if it hurts, don't do it, and when in doubt, go to a good sports physical therapist or doctor.

[Danny W.]

I've lost some height over the years and found that guitars I used to find very comfortable were not so much anymore.

So I went from 17" guitars:



to 15.5" guitars:



Problem went away. Sold all my 17" hollow bodies and 16" semis, replaced with 15.5" & 14" respectively, been happy ever since.

Danny W.

[thelostboss]

[QUOTE=StoneWaller;1300530]<<SNIP>>

1: hanging from a bar at least a few minutes a day. <<SNIP>>/QUOTE]

Not sure how appropriate that advice is for jazz musicians!

[though it could see some being stretchered out of the joint]

[ragman1]

hanging about in a bar at least a few minutes a day

Sounds like terrific advice to me, cures anything :-)

[fep]

Something a little bit in my wheel house. The strenuous life has left me with shoulder impingement as well, and large bodied guitars do exasperate the discomfort if not careful. I end up rolling my shoulder toward the guitar causing internal rotation - hence the impingement. (And why I ultimately settled on a super slim archtop) The same thing is a very common form error in the bench press, and if you ask 9 guys out of 10 that are heavy benchers, I bet they'll all have trashed shoulders, partly from this same internally rotated position.

Two things helped me immensely. *Disclaimer, I'm not a doctor or PT Just a physical guy who has made it his business to know some of these hacks for better quality of life...I try to avoid getting cut unless it's absolutely necessary.

1: hanging from a bar at least a few minutes a day. This essentially creates space by stretching out the joint. If your grip can't support your body weight, use a lower bar to hang from and use your legs for support.

2: very gentle internal and external rotation excercises with light resistance bands. You can find the how to images or videos with a Google search pretty easily.

There's tons of other PT exercises out there, but those two worked best for me. And as others have said, if it hurts, don't do it, and when in doubt, go to a good sports physical therapist or doctor.

The PT is giving me the rotation exercises with resistance bands. I'll ask him tomorrow about hanging from a bar (I'm guessing it may be a little early in the process for me to try that).

[StoneWaller]

The PT is giving me the rotation exercises with resistance bands. I'll ask him tomorrow about hanging from a bar (I'm guessing it may be a little early in the process for me to try that).

Probably wise. Hope your PT guy can help you out. I stay far away from guitar "Instructional" content on the YouTubes, but FYI, I learned the hanging from "Bob and Brad". Two extremely Midwestern physical therapists that have a great channel when trying to initially self assess some of those aches and pains we get in the joints. Of course as rpguitar alluded to, if all else fails, alcohol. "The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems"

[GuyBoden]

Two or three years ago, I changed to a more upright seated position, using guitars with a Strandberg type bodies.

I've had no problems since.

This is me.