Why is that?

[emanresu]

Whenever you play in a rock band, you play the same stupid chords with some "rhythm" to push them and it's awesome.
... but when playing jazz, you go and try every single half-learned voicings next round to not suck?

[Jimmy Smith]

I can't understand the last half of the second sentence.

[emanresu]

half-learned?
cant blast with full confidence.

[Jimmy Smith]

try every single half-learned voicings next round

Wtf does this mean?

[Jimmy Smith]

Because jazz has the same rhythmic requirements of rock, it has to be poppin. Only it has way more harmonic/melodic requirements. So if you don't execute all that, either the rhythmic excitement or harmonic/melodic interest, then it will suck. Jazz is way harder than basic rock. Also I think the intensity of jazz is a little lower than rock overall so that can add to the sucking if it isn't good. You gotta be devoted to jazz I guess to make it good.

[emanresu]

Ok. When comping jazz, we are always timid and kinda in the background. When the soloist goes somewere, we inhale some bravery from those (edit pheromones and
support it... with some "crazy" voicings. But it is almost never like in rock music. There it is "play louder!" - that works.
In jazz comping - play crazier notes but keep it safe.. don't go over the required volume levels. Restriction always. Neatness.

[Jimmy Smith]

Yes, that's how it is. Jazz is more content at lower intensity than rock. So it can be hard to make it moving if you're not doing it well. Just gotta accept it and try to do a good job at it if you love jazz. At least it's not classical. That's too stifled for me.

[AllanAllen]

Whenever you play in a rock band, you play the same stupid chords with some "rhythm" to push them and it's awesome.
... but when playing jazz, you go and try every single half-learned voicings next round to not suck?

Because you’re trying too hard.

Watch Frank Vignola’s guitar night streams. He’s not doing all that… Watch Joe Pass comp, he’s playing E and A bar chords 80% of the time. Watch Peter Bernstein sit there and not comp at all on the Emmett’s Place set.

It’s good to know all the inversions and extensions, but it’s better to know how to use the things you have.

Also, it’s fine to repeat yourself. People are supposed to be listening to the soloist. If the hi hat is more interesting than the guitar solo in a rock tune, well… You got big problems. Same idea here.

[kris]

I think Scof said that jazz is similar to rock but requires more work.

[Litterick]

Someone on The Gear Page once asked why jazz guitar is so backward, why jazz guitarists do not play hammer-ons, pull-offs and all those other rock techniques. The simple answer is that jazz guitar is what it is. If they do all that rock stuff, they become rock guitarists.

Similarly, If rock guitarists play clever chords and complex rhythms, their music does not sound like rock anymore. Rock is loud and simple. Jazz is quiet and clever.

[oldane]

Rock is loud and simple. Jazz is quiet and clever.

.... and then there is all that in between. J.J.Cale is one example: Quiet, laid back, subdued, often swinging, harmonically simple - and clever in the way he could nail a groove. He was an inspiration for Mark Knopler/Dire Straits and the later Eric Clapton among others.

[AllanAllen]

Jazz guitarists don’t do hammer ons and pull offs? That’s news to me. Herb Ellis specifically said to use them in his instructional materials.

[Christian Miller]

I do loads of hammer ons and pull offs and I’m not the only one.

I suspect what they mean is ‘why do jazz guitarists not sound like rock guitarists?’

Obv there are plenty of jazz guitarists who play in a more rocky/bluesy way.

Maybe people say they are not jazz guitarists; in which case the argument becomes completely circular.

The style of mid century modern jazz follows what you could call ‘the modernist aesthetic’ - no or restrained terminal vibrato, clean articulation, lack of ‘effects or noises’ found in pre war jazz. This filtered into the guitar approach and many players carry on with that style. It’s also true of the singers - Ella, Frank etc compared to pre war jazz singers … That’s the reason of course.

otoh Jimmy Page once said that Django sounded to him like he was using feedback etc before electric guitar, and when you listen to the way horns played in the thirties there’s a lot of similarity to rock, wah wah, growls, riffs, textures a bit like distortion. That era of music was apparently a big influence on black sabbath haha. You could say fusion (a free) brought it back a bit.

[emanresu]

Yes, that's how it is. Jazz is more content at lower intensity than rock. So it can be hard to make it moving if you're not doing it well. Just gotta accept it and try to do a good job at it if you love jazz. At least it's not classical. That's too stifled for me.

Concierto de Aranjuez has heavy rasqueado fff, doesn't sound out of place or in another style. Mentioning that one because the smoothest version of that piece is of course J.Hall's . But heavy strumming on simple chords can be found in a lot of classical pieces - completely in place.
Rock can contain complex harmony, different modes and occasionally chill parts for sure, when this happens, not a single thought comes to mind that likes of :"eh, now its smooth jazz or something". Yet when changing a jazz comp to simple chords and play them as some rasqueado or funky way, the first thought is "oh, having fun with it in *style* ".
Seems like jazz tends to restrict itself a lot more than other styles?

[Litterick]

Jazz guitarists don’t do hammer ons and pull offs? That’s news to me. Herb Ellis specifically said to use them in his instructional materials.

The writer was not a jazz enthusiast and was writing generally, no doubt with conservative straight-ahead guitarists in mind. Yes, there are jazz guitarists who are influenced by rock, just as there are rock guitarists influenced by jazz. But the writer's point was about the essential activities that characterise jazz guitar, not the peripherals.

[sgcim]

Buddy Fite broke all the laws of jazz guitar. He played a twangy sounding Gretsch with the treble on eleven.
He bent the Hell out of strings. He played blues and country licks galore. He used fingerpicks, (because he 'd get so drunk every gig he'd keep dropping his flatpick, and you can't drop fingerpicks).
And yet IMHO, he was one of the best jazz guitarists of all time.
Why? He could swing his ass off. It's all a matter of rhythm, and lines:

[AllanAllen]

The writer was not a jazz enthusiast and was writing generally, no doubt with conservative straight-ahead guitarists in mind. Yes, there are jazz guitarists who are influenced by rock, just as there are rock guitarists influenced by jazz. But the writer's point was about the essential activities that characterise jazz guitar, not the peripherals.

I don’t follow what you’re trying to say.

Herb Ellis isn’t some peripheral… he’s the guy from the Oscar Perterson Trio. Oscar Peterson Trio being the preeminent straight ahead group. I mean, I singled him out for a reason.

[Litterick]

I don’t follow what you’re trying to say.

Herb Ellis isn’t some peripheral… he’s the guy from the Oscar Perterson Trio. Oscar Peterson Trio being the preeminent straight ahead group. I mean, I singled him out for a reason.

You singled him out. He is an exception. Most straight-ahead guitarists do not play hammer-ons and pull-offs (terms invented by Pete Seeger — the former being used first in his 1948 book How to Play the Five-String Banjo). These embellishments (if that is the right word) are not characteristic of jazz guitar, which generally is played clean.

Musical genres have distinct characteristics — otherwise, we would not recognise them as such. Some musicians within the genre use techniques that come from other traditions, but the genre would vanish if its unique characteristics were abandoned.

[Christian Miller]

I suppose it’s reasonable to say most jazz guitarists don’t use as many hammer ons and pull offs as most old school jazz guitarists.

Left hand ligado (‘hammer ons and pull offs’) has a long history on guitar. Jazz guitar is full of trills and turns and techniques like rest stroke picking are reliant on a little bit of ligado to make it work.

many jazz guitarists these days practice ‘slurring into the beat’ too. Jazz guitar is pretty legato these days, more hammers and pull offs than a historical jazz guitarist. Lage Lund, Kurt or Mike Moreno would be good examples.

[Christian Miller]

Whenever you play in a rock band, you play the same stupid chords with some "rhythm" to push them and it's awesome.
... but when playing jazz, you go and try every single half-learned voicings next round to not suck?

because people get into their heads that they have to be improvising all the time in jazz, and prioritise this over the groove.

Never try to play half learned stuff on the bandstand… it never comes off…. I learn this the hard way haha.

[djg]

You singled him out. He is an exception. Most straight-ahead guitarists do not play hammer-ons and pull-offs (terms invented by Pete Seeger — the former being used first in his 1948 book How to Play the Five-String Banjo). These embellishments (if that is the right word) are not characteristic of jazz guitar, which generally is played clean.

oh dear.

[kris]

How to understand terms?...:
Jazz amplifier
Rock amplifier
Is the key the type of music we currently play?

[kris]

The writer was not a jazz enthusiast and was writing generally, no doubt with conservative straight-ahead guitarists in mind. Yes, there are jazz guitarists who are influenced by rock, just as there are rock guitarists influenced by jazz. But the writer's point was about the essential activities that characterise jazz guitar, not the peripherals.

[Litterick]

oh dear.

What?

[Litterick]

Yes, that is his speciality, his unique selling point, the skill that sets him apart from straight-ahead, sport-coat, Italian-American jazz guitarists.