Why is that?

[DawgBone]

EVERY electric guitarist slurs something. It's a feature of the instrument. It's just not perhaps as prominent of a feature in jazz as in blues where sometimes every note will have some kind of hammer, pull off, slur, vibrato, or bend on it, but yeah it's pretty obvious it is a feature in some jazz. Fact is, that is always a goal of mine in a lot of the material I tackle to slur everything.

Reading the thread it dawned on me that my favorite jazz guitarists seem to be the guys who do slur more frequently. Kenny, Tal, Grant, etc. I think it generates excitement.

[pamosmusic]

And then there's BENDS. Don't forget bends.

Hey now. Jazz guitarists don’t bend.

Just kidding.

Though this one’s maybe a bit stickier than the other one. Who knows why though. Lots of great guitarists bend—Charlie Christian first among them.

I had a student recently working on Hank Mobleys solo on Remember and he did that wicked downward bend at the end of the first B section (if I remember right). Anyway … it was awesome. Bends are great.

[AllanAllen]

Bends go all the way back to Django, Charlie Christian and Eddie Lang. Essentially, the genesis of recorded jazz guitar. Slurs too, but this has been covered.

[pamosmusic]

Bends go all the way back to Django, Charlie Christian and Eddie Lang. Essentially, the genesis of recorded jazz guitar. Slurs too, but this has been covered.

Yeah I never understood that. Lots of beginning jazz guitar things … “archtop, flatwounds, no bends.”

None of which are terribly accurate or helpful.

[AllanAllen]

Yeah I never understood that. Lots of beginning jazz guitar things … “archtop, flatwounds, no bends.”

None of which are terribly accurate or helpful.

The best advice for beginners is get a teacher, followed by learn by ear. But those are also misunderstood as "only learn by ear" and "you can't do this without a teacher"

[kris]

I do not like bend on nylon strings guitar and I do not like bend on my 16s GHS flatwound strings.
I like bend on 10s strings...:-)

[pamosmusic]

For what it’s worth, Gilad Hekselman just posted a thing on his Instagram previewing next months Patreon and it’s got a big slurring lesson, it seems.

[rpjazzguitar]

Warren Nunes had a jackhammer attack. And, afaik, his major influence was George Shearing, a pianist. I don't think of him as a player who was really into changing how notes speak, at least not much.

That said, he slid into notes and pulled off as part of his basic style.

What Warren didn't do, as far as I recall, and I think this may apply to other jazzers of that era, was to bend notes or use much vibrato.

When I think about the issue, I don't think about the technique, I think about the result. Does the line seem like it would sound similar if played on a piano? Or, in contrast, does the line require that the notes speak in different or varied ways? Slurs and pull-offs aren't necessarily all that obvious. Bending, shaking, sliding, whammy bar (still largely unexplored in GASB style jazz) country style use of ringing open strings within fast lines, are more obvious.

[RLetson]

I'm not worthy to carry the spare strings of most posters here, but I do have some experience with the processes of description, definition, and taxonomy in general, particularly in discussions of musical traditions, histories, and technical vocabularies.

Every musical tradition has a center and a periphery, and peripheries are not red-line hard boundaries. And centers shift, historically and culturally and economically. So entire taxonomic entities slide around, shape-shift, interpenetrate, squirm, and generally mess with the squamous mind.

Which means that propositions like "Music X always includes Trait Y" are going to generate arguments. In fact, even terms that amount to "Genuine/real Music X" are asking for trouble. My particular experience is with the varieties of Hawaiian music, which have interestingly complex and sometimes fraught relationships with traits and techniques and conventions that originate in cultural traditions from outside the Islands. Who plays "real" slack-key? It's right up there with "Can a blue man play the whites?"

Seems to me that jazz of all kinds contains similar historical-cultural-technical complexities, and while it can be interesting to survey and map traits and practices and lines of influence, the resulting maps do not result in a neat definition, let alone sentences that can comfortably include words like "must," "always," "never," "ought," or "real."

[SandChannel]

Christian and the Sock Puppets are my favorite doo-wop group. Ever.

[Christian Miller]

Christian and the Sock Puppets are my favorite doo-wop group. Ever.

Ah mate, if I had the time I’d be doing a YouTube video …

[Christian Miller]

The best advice for beginners is get a teacher, followed by learn by ear. But those are also misunderstood as "only learn by ear" and "you can't do this without a teacher"

After learning to play jazz largely without much formal input apart from group workshops and maybe ten jazz guitar lessons over the course of several decades, I think I can reasonably say:

Get a blinking teacher, are you nuts????

[PMB]

maybe chuck wayne? don't know much about him. possibly johnny smith?

Chuck Wayne definitely used slurs regularly when soloing. He also developed 3 nps string scale forms (years before Frank Gambale) to help facilitate a kind of slurred string bowing action with his RH where the pick moves primarily in one direction.

[AllanAllen]

are you nuts????

Yes, and you're here with me so...

[pamosmusic]

After learning to play jazz largely without much formal input apart from group workshops and maybe ten jazz guitar lessons over the course of several decades, I think I can reasonably say:

Get a blinking teacher, are you nuts????

As a guitar teacher, I disagree with you in the strongest possible terms, obvs.

As a human being … maybe we rephrase as “get a person to help you separate the dumb internet stuff from the smart internet stuff.”

Certainly doesn’t need to be a teacher. You’ll need to people to play with anyway, so make sure one of them is better than you? Just like …. Someone, somewhere.

[Litterick]

This post is #96 in this thread. The discussion has been quite heated between Litterick and others. So far guitarists like Wes, Herb Ellis and many others who use hammer-ons and pull-offs have been dismissed by Litterick as exceptions or outliers to the rule he quotes, saying that in jazz guitar playing those techniques are not used. Nobody, Litterick included, has been able to name any jazz guitarist who beyond doubt don't use them while many has been named who do use them.

With so few (any?) adhering to the core of jazz guitar playing techniques and so many who don't it could be tempting to conclude that at the end of the day there are actually very few true jazz guitarists out there - and maybe Wes, Herb and many others are not jazz guitarists after all?

Of course, that is not true.

That is good to know, because that is not what I claimed. You have inverted what I said to suit your purposes.

I do not doubt for one moment that many jazz guitarists use hammer-ons, pull-offs, and other slurs. My many critics have provided many examples, as if they refuted my argument. I have asked to provide counter-examples, as if they would justify my argument. I have been accused (rather unpleasantly, but typically for this forum) of ignorance of the masters, of a failure to study transcriptions. But all this is irrelevant.

What matters is whether slurring is essential. Must one play slurs in order to be a jazz guitarist? Can one be a jazz guitarist without slurring? If slurring is essential, surely it would be included in all the books that teach the basics of jazz guitar? I have only one to hand, Jane Miller's Introduction to Jazz Guitar. She teaches at Berklee and her book was published by Berklee Press in 2015, so she seems a reliable guide. Her chapters each teach an important topic — Scale patterns, Seventh chords, Tensions and extensions, Chord voicings and spellings, II V I progressions, Guide tones, Dominants substitutions, and so on — but slurring or legato is no among them. Is she an outlier? I don't think so. I have borrowed many instruction books on jazz guitar from the extensive collection at my local library; none, so far as I can recall, discuss slurring.

Studying a book like Miller's will introduce the reader to jazz guitar, without teaching legato techniques. So are they essential? I think not.

[Litterick]

Don't insult one of the most active musicians on the Internet.
Apart from chatting on the forum, there is also something like playing the guitar.

I do not tolerate bullying.

[pamosmusic]

That is good to know, because that is not what I claimed. You have inverted what I said to suit your purposes.

I do not doubt for one moment that many jazz guitarists use hammer-ons, pull-offs, and other slurs. My many critics have provided many examples, as if they refuted my argument. I have asked to provide counter-examples, as if they would justify my argument. I have been accused (rather unpleasantly, but typically for this forum) of ignorance of the masters, of a failure to study transcriptions. But all this is irrelevant.

What matters is whether slurring is essential. Must one play slurs in order to be a jazz guitarist? Can one be a jazz guitarist without slurring? If slurring is essential, surely it would be included in all the books that teach the basics of jazz guitar? I have only one to hand, Jane Miller's Introduction to Jazz Guitar. She teaches at Berklee and her book was published by Berklee Press in 2015, so she seems a reliable guide. Her chapters each teach an important topic — Scale patterns, Seventh chords, Tensions and extensions, Chord voicings and spellings, II V I progressions, Guide tones, Dominants substitutions, and so on — but slurring or legato is no among them. Is she an outlier? I don't think so. I have borrowed many instruction books on jazz guitar from the extensive collection at my local library; none, so far as I can recall, discuss slurring.

Studying a book like Miller's will introduce the reader to jazz guitar, without teaching legato techniques. So are they essential? I think not.

But when you listen to the music, what do you hear?

My music history teacher used to say that “writing about music is like dancing about architecture.”

(she got it from somewhere but I can’t remember where. I love it though. Anyway …)

You’re talking about the essence of music and then pointing to the table of contents from a Berklee Press book from 2015. I don’t doubt it’s a great book, and what you read about music can be helpful but it’s just “about the music.” It’s not the actual music. The essence of the music is … well … the music.

So what do you hear when you listen?

[pamosmusic]

I suppose, since we’re back, that the best argument against slurs being essential to jazz guitar would have to be that jazz pianists still swing. Since they can’t really slur the way other instruments can.

Then again, the mechanics of the instrument are different. Piano sounds smoother than alternate picked guitar. So maybe they don’t need the slurs.

[kris]

I do not tolerate bullying.

I really don't like the Internet because sometimes I don't know what exactly the writer is talking about.
There are people here with different experiences, not necessarily related to jazz guitar music.
There's just too much talking and not enough actual guitar playing.
This is the downside of this forum and I regret it very much.

[Litterick]

I really don't like the Internet because sometimes I don't know what exactly the writer is talking about.
There are people here with different experiences, not necessarily related to jazz guitar music.
There's just too much talking and not enough actual guitar playing.
This is the downside of this forum and I regret it very much.

I have vowed to spend more time playing — thrice rather than twice a day — and less time here.

[Litterick]

But when you listen to the music, what do you hear?

My music history teacher used to say that “writing about music is like dancing about architecture.”

(she got it from somewhere but I can’t remember where. I love it though. Anyway …)

You’re talking about the essence of music and then pointing to the table of contents from a Berklee Press book from 2015. I don’t doubt it’s a great book, and what you read about music can be helpful but it’s just “about the music.” It’s not the actual music. The essence of the music is … well … the music.

So what do you hear when you listen?

I hear music.

My point was that a technique can hardly be essential if it is not taught in a basic instruction book.

Dancing is a valid response to architecture.

[pamosmusic]

I hear music.

My point was that a technique can hardly be essential if it is not taught in a basic instruction book.

Dancing is a valid response to architecture.

I concede. I have been bested.

[Litterick]

[RLetson]

Forums are good at conversation and also reasonable places to post material like samples of playing. And I might carry some of what I read here into my playing. But chat and discussion and anecdotes and even arguments are worthy activities themselves that don't necessarily detract from my playing.

And as a one-time music journalist and general blatherer, I've written quite a lot about music--some of it even useful. But then, slinging words is my only real skill, so what do I know.

(The dancing/architecture line is usually attributed to Frank Zappa, though maybe it was Lincoln or Einstein or Churchill or Aristotle. Depends on whose photo goes on the meme.)