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Yeah I grew up in a town of about 2,500, so there was zero jazz. One guy who played Chet Atkins style stuff so there was a bit of tune overlap and that was cool. But sometimes there are limitations like that.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
and I was 15. So I went to college for music and then moved to New York. If I decided I needed to move somewhere with a bigger music scene now, I think my toddler and cat might take exception.
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08-15-2023 09:44 AM
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The toddler would probably take the move better than the cat.
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No, make passive aggressive comments and drink tea. See also Peter Jackson’s Get Back. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Maybe unfairly, but I was characterizing hobbyists as people who haven't 'got it' yet. Much book buying and internet searching and discovering the multitude of paths available but without a playing or jamming barometer available to them (maybe due to access or choice or life/family obligations). With that being said, not trying to knock people with a guitar hobby who find joy in reading through Randy Vincent's 3 note voicings book but can't really hang at a jam. Do what makes you happy. Hobbyists that can hang but don't do it as a job, or used to be a pro or have a few gigs a month, well that's a whole different thing and I'd lump them in with the pros for this discussion.
I never really 'got it' until I moved to a larger centre to go to music school and then could understand what competent/good/great was. Also, that environment helped frame all the disparate sources I was pulling from before from self teaching and private instruction and chart a path forward. My hometown had a core group of professional jazz musicians but you would have to be seeking those gigs out to find them and I had virtually no exposure to jazz growing up so I didn't know they existed. Big country town and to a lesser extent indie/punk.
It was interesting meeting kids at uni/college who had gone to specialist arts schools and were already playing at a professional level, had learned Donna Lee by ear at age 13 or whatever. Those experiences were overwhelming in a different way as I definitely felt way behind. But you learn to settle into your path.
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Originally Posted by bediles
There should be a third tier, something like gigging hobbyist. I still practice 2 hours a night and have a few gigs, but I have kids, a wife, a mortgage, and I'm not quitting my job to slum it in Manhattan and suffer as a music teacher who gigs. Which, honestly, is what being a professional musician means now. I like spreadsheets more than 12 year olds who don't want to practice.
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Honestly the dichotomy is one I only see in particular corners of the internet. Like use of the word “pro” around here. I meet lots of professional musicians who don’t have it totally “together” in the sense we meet here, and I know loooooads of musicians who really think deeply about music and who practice a lot and who have day jobs. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
One of the best bass players I played with in New York worked as a clerk in a law office. I played with an incredible drummer who worked for an after school kids program playing staged shows. Basically everyone taught. I worked full time for a guitar builder, and then later for a jazz club.
So the whole way folks online use the word “pro” has no relationship whatsoever to the way being a musician really works. Being a pro has very little to do with being an extremely strong musician and being a strong musician does not necessitate being a full time professional.
So what you describe as being a middle tier wouldn’t really make you different than any number of killer musicians in New York City. That’s just called being a human being. It would be musicianship that sets those guys apart and there are a lot of ways to be a musician in the world.
As an aside … I slummed it in deeeeeep South Brooklyn and the vast and desolate expanse of Rego Park, Queens. Median Rent in Manhattan recently topped $5500 so there isn’t much slumming left to do on that god forsaken island.
Also I’ve never been much for spreadsheets … but wait til you get a twelve year old who DOES practice.
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Another term the internet loves is "gigging musician" which describes musicians that range from someone who just picked up a guitar less than a year ago and plays cowboy chords in their friends band in dive bars or weddings, all the way to Wynton Marsalis. It says absolutely nothing about the level of musicianship or experience.
There are also people who play gigs 6 nights a week but never get time or motivation to practice to expand their musical horizons and there are Ted Greene types who don't like to gig much but delve very deep into music.Last edited by Tal_175; 08-17-2023 at 01:57 PM.
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(Also for the record, I didn’t slum it at all. I’m an outer borough dude through and through. Love the ends of those train lines. New York’s not a bad city if you get off the beaten track just a little.)
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Take for example Vincent Van Gogh: is it true, as the saying goes, that during his lifetime he only sold ONE of his paintings? Provided that's true, then was he a "gigging" painter? Originally Posted by Tal_175
Most probabily not! Anyway... what a painter and what a talent he was! Also think of Charles Ives who was an insurance executive.
For me the term "pro" has more to do with talent and the level of musicianship, rather than with making money or a living through making music...Last edited by frabarmus; 08-17-2023 at 02:24 PM.
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Also Wallace Stevens, another insurance exec. Although I can’t think of what a “professional poet” would be in the modern world. Originally Posted by frabarmus
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When I was on the road with the trio back in the late 70s, I met a number of hobby players who were excellent musicians who had absolutely no desire to perform. They simply enjoyed the process of learning and playing for themselves and maybe occasionally for friends or family in small gatherings that weren't about them. The way I met these folks was that they would come to see who was playing and just chat during our breaks. Nothing at all wrong with that. At that time, a typical union gig (we had to be AF of M members for all our gigs) was 40 minutes on and 20 minutes off each hour. The length of the gig was generally controlled by local ordinances for bar and club hours. Originally Posted by frabarmus
Tony
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We're edging into the wonderful swamp of "who's an artist?" and the semi-related matter of whether and to what degree "professionalism" matters.
To Ives and Stevens add William Carlos Williams (physician) and T. S. Eliot (worked in a bank and then in publishing). Robert Frost was a failed farmer and passable teacher and continued teaching after becoming an iconic poet. The late Thomas Kinsella was a civil servant (finance department) before finding gigs in the academy. Bunches of Renaissance poets were in the aristocracy biz (inherited-wealth and court-toady/functionary divisions)--though Shakespeare (that upstart middle-class crow) was a pro through and through, and Dr. Samuel Johnson pointed out, "No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money."
Maybe the most financially successful modern poet I can think of is Rod McKuen. (Ick.) Unless we get sloppy and start including popular songwriters in the category. (Paul Simon actually writes a pretty good stick, though the melodies really complete the work.)
Professionalism was once explained to me by a gigging bar-band player (whose main living was music store sales and instrument repair) as being the guy who makes sure that the band gets booked, gets to the venue on time, and makes sure they get paid. (He was also a perfectly capable bassist.)
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Yeah I think people who don’t play music for a living may imagine there’s some line you cross where you become a ‘pro’ in terms of ability. This is what I used to think, and I have to say it hasn’t been borne out by experience.
Some pros are solid but unexceptional players… some are, how to put this? Mostly their skillset is in setting up gigs and their playing is functional. There’s more than one way to go about it. On the other hand if you want to play jazz you probably will remain a part timer, and other gigs either in music or outside are necessary.
OTOH one’s own ability level is very treacherous to gauge especially when you are playing with musicians that play to a very high level and stretch you on gigs - which should be the case. If your gigs stretch you you may come away feeling that you aren’t very good quite a lot of the time.
You CAN gauge how much you feel you are learning, and after a while if people are asking you to do gigs, you may start to think ‘well I can’t be too terrible.’
OTOH while it may be true that you might not be very good compared to some people, you may also be brilliant compared to others. Perhaps if you really have a thing, people may just not like what you do! These things are relative.
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Johnny Smith and George Van Eps both became storekeepers while they could still play.
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Wes never quit his welding job, Tal never stopped painting signs. The list is endless. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Yeah I mean … the operative thing is the seriousness of the musician in all these cases. These are guys who were getting very deeply into the music. I mean, the apocryphal story about Wes’s thumb is that he started using it because he was practicing all night while his family was asleep and the pick was too loud. Not sure if it’s true or not, but that’s the vibe.
There are also people like George Benson who were practicing all the time, basically lying flat on his back on top of the luggage in the back of the tour van because the only time he could shed while he was on tour was while they were driving and he was always touring.
Maria Schneider’s manager told me once that Ben Monder is literally *always* practicing. Has a guitar with him while he’s at the table with a plate of food.
So being killer the way these guys are killer doesn’t require being a professional, but it does require being a full time musician, if that makes sense. It’s not their source of income necessarily, but it’s a very serious pursuit.
I think the thing I’ve noticed about people who are really good musicians is maybe described as musical curiosity. They approach things different ways and commit time in different places, but they’re always taking things apart to see what makes them tick. It’s not enough to learn the chord changes, they want to understand why the changes work and what makes them cohere. Not enough to learn the melody; they want to know what makes the melody stick in their ear. Why does that lick work and can I do it too? That kind of thing.
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All artists must resolve these feelings. Perhaps, try to let it go and enjoy the journey. Anyway, that's what I try to do. My age is now 66. In the time I have left, I'll likely never hit the mark I'd like to in either my musical or martial art journeys. I'll just keep at it as long as I can and enjoy the path. It's worth the effort. It enriches my life in so many other ways. One small step at a time; one foot in front of the other. Do what you can. Every day is a new day and a new opportunity. At some point, it become difficult to learn and then hold on to new, difficult material, or pull up everything from your past efforts. You may forget the intricacies of a piece. It'll come back with slow, deliberate effort. Slow down and find the 'heart' of it. That's all you really need.
.... and don't forget this is supposed to be fun
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Best answer! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Whenever setting a goal and imagining achieving it (those long term ones), I always tend to spend 3-4x more time
than expected. That's how much better I think of myself than I really am.. mathematically. After a while, my nose hasn't dropped much
but I just multiply the imagined time for the work by 4x. That helps to relax a bit
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I have received compensation for making music--sometimes actual money in addition to food and drink. Does that make me a professional? Hmph. Our accountant wasn't impressed.
I also learned from my mentor/bandmates how to comport myself "professionally," starting with "Stop saying 'Oh shit!' when you make a mistake" along with showing up on time, treating the venue staff well, and other extensions of ordinary good manners. (I guess my parents were pros in that sense.)
I am, nevertheless, an amateur in that I have never depended on music for any significant part of my living, never had to play when I didn't feel like it (though I always feel like it), never had to hustle gigs or be anxious when a venue closed (though I have mourned the loss of venues and playing opportunities).
In fact, most of the pro-ability-level musicians I've played with over the last 28 years have had day jobs, including a guy who spent 12 years in the Air Force bands and plays as mean a sax as any big-band guy from a big town. And a trumpter/vocalist who's just as good. (They're both medical-biz programmers.) What makes them a pleasure to play with is their musicality, which is only partly accounted for by their technical facility. They're both "pros" in any useful sense of the term, and neither makes his living playing. (Though I suspect the extra income is welcome.)
Being a professional musician is something like being a professional writer: it helps to have a day job or a working spouse, or both. But from the craft point of view, there are real thresholds that need to be crossed if you want to be able to hold your head up.
A footnote on environments and relative status: Since Covid reconfigured the local gigging environment, I have two weekly playing opportunities. At the brewery's Sunday informal acoustic/folkie/country jam, I'm a hot picker (mostly on the strength of calling standards that include diminished chords--though I do avoid horn keys). But when I sit in with the long-standing jazz group's cocktail-lounge evening, I'm the sitting-in amateur who is (I suspect) tolerated because he knows when to sit out and never takes a solo or even suggests a tune and would never accept a share of the tip bucket, even if offered, which it isn't. (Maybe my true identity is "mascot." I am, after all, 15 years older than the oldest player and perhaps marveled at just for showing up regularly, carrying my own gear.)
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