latin jazz/pop/etc - is that what we'd have in an alternate world?

[RJVB]

I was listening to a latin jazz show on WWOZ earlier today, and got to thinking.

Usually I can't stand South-American (dance) music very long; too many of it is or feels as if it is in major keys, I rarely notice it in positive way and the kinds I do notice (not positively) often seem to have too many different kinds of "little" (percussive) instruments with simple, repetitive parts that get on my nerves. (I also tend to not like the actual dances at all, but that's a different chapter.)

Anyway, it struck me that the music I that had been getting on my nerves sounded really different from the usual jazz and if this could be related to an absence of African influences at some point during its development. I actually have very little idea if less slaves got shipped off to South-America (Dutch Surinam is clearly not a case in point of that hypothesis) but let's suppose the difference was big enough in the crucial places for latin music...

Would that give us an idea of what our various kinds of popular music could sound like in an alternate reality where there had been no African migration to the new world, be it forced or voluntary?

The alternative question is of course why African influences are so much less apparent in that music - or why that seems to be the case if I'm just not recognising it?

[Rickco]

Youve been listening to the wrong shit. The Cubans in particular as well as many (most) of the developed "latin" markets have furthered jazz in the last 30 yrs farther than any thing thats happened in the stagnant world of american copycat jazz. try Fort Apache try Rumba club try Eliane Elias try Chano Dominguez try Bebo Valdez try Ray Barrettos last 5 albums. If your listening to latin "pop" it sucks just like all the other looped pop crap in every style. The African contribution is the harmony that informs all our popular music. The latin contribution is the rhythmic variations that are now being explored as never before. Dizzy G Art B Charles M were all hip to this, when you hear Blakey your hearing afro Caribbean phrasing. You can hear call and response in ancient Ethiopian sufi chanting and this is "latin influenced" as well. I started playing guitar 60+ yrs ago and am still trying to learn, I played congas professionally for 35yrs for the last 10 or so I played in hi level bebop and big bands, we didnt play much latin but our jazz had a flavor that was immensely popular with our local fans. Artists like Otmoro Ruiz and Jimmy Branly are advancing the form in ways that would be impossible for musicians whos definition of jazz was based on whats come out of this country since the peak of bop. Turn the dial a little and Ill bet youll find something irresistible. Remember Bossa Nova was cutting edge and racy when it came to our attention. Last thing, you want to hear some advanced changes and voicings try Eddie Palmieri
Just my rant, Rick

[RJVB]

FWIW, when I write "popular music" I mean music that isn't classical. The context here was western music so I didn't have to how that distinction might be different elsewhere.

As far as I can tell WWOZ don't play actual "pop" music, and they mostly play music/artists that I can recognise as "good" even if I don't actually like what I hear. Mostly, because some of it is too different, i.e. I know too little about it.

That doesn't always mean I don't like it; I like gamelan and other traditional music from the far East and I've heard a lot of it when I was mingling intensively with the Dutch "Indo" community, but I really couldn't do quality judgements of it.

call and response in ancient Ethiopian sufi chanting

Ethiopians as in ancient Egyptians, the "King Tut" that some black American artists liked to related to at some point (or maybe still do)?
Call and response forms must be as old as human communication so I have no doubts the ancient Ethiopians had it... but anything sufi is too young to be ancient I think - if we're talking about the same thing

Anyway, this wasn't really about whether I like it or not. And I specifically didn't refer to the Caribian because I know the creole culture there too well.

I do wonder why I like zydeco, in fact, it does share a few traits with the latin music I have difficulties with.

Oh, and you can't talk about latin music on a guitar music without mentioned Barrios and Brouwer, of course I don't mind either, apart maybe from being too difficult for me and Barrios for having parodied Bach a bit much (But he also wrote a nice duo arrangement of Anitra's Dance from Peer Gynt, and it's time I go back to studying that )

[Litterick]

Hawaiian noises.

[Rickco]

I was looking at it from a purely american point of view. The country that brought us jazz has also let it stagnate. One of the things that turned me to percussion were the endless real book gigs my guitar friends seemed to be getting. The main thing was how the cubans brazilians puertoricans etc etc were giving it a new look but with absolute respect for the masters that created it. Now I find the most creative and thoughtful expressions of the form come from outside the country. Oddly there isnt much for the guitar to do in the dance forms of cuba as the harmony is usually played in montuno form, better suited to Tres, Quatro or piano however in brazil the 7 string guitar rules and if you havent heard him Yamandu Costa is worth a listen (hes all over utube)

[RJVB]

Hawaiian noises.

What's that?

[RJVB]

if you havent heard him Yamandu Costa is worth a listen (hes all over utube)

I have, and what I've heard is indeed not my thing.

BTW, if Cuba is to be counted in with South-America, then what is Florida... Central America?

[Stevebol]

I have, and what I've heard is indeed not my thing.

BTW, if Cuba is to be counted in with South-America, then what is Florida... Central America?

Everything that's next to an ocean is 'coastie'.

[docsteve]

What's that?

Banging on the bongos like a chimpanzee.


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[Litterick]

What's that?

A line from Money for Nothing by Dire Straits:

And he's up there, what's that? Hawaiian noises?
He's bangin' on the bongos like a chimpanzee

I had a point. If you want to listen to modern music that does not contain African influences, South America is not your continent. The Spaniards and the Portuguese obtained slaves from Africa. The slaves brought their music, which influenced the South American music we hear today. The music of the Pacific, however, does not have direct African influence, although it has other influences from colonisation.

[dot75]

..... if this could be related to an absence of African influences at some point during its development. I actually have very little idea if less slaves got shipped off to South-America (Dutch Surinam is clearly not a case in point of that hypothesis) but let's suppose the difference was big enough in the crucial places for latin music...

Would that give us an idea of what our various kinds of popular music could sound like in an alternate reality where there had been no African migration to the new world, be it forced or voluntary?

The alternative question is of course why African influences are so much less apparent in that music - or why that seems to be the case if I'm just not recognising it?

Around four hundred thousand Africans were transported to mainland North America, around five million to Brazil & another five million to the Carribean & Spanish South America.

The African influence is everywhere.

Estimates

[docsteve]

I should think the African influence on rhythm is even stronger in Latin America than it is in jazz. For one, jazz started off with marching bands who had a comparatively straight, European 2/4 beat. Moreover, Spanish music already had moorish rhythmic influences. Think clave, think the ubiquitous 3/4-6/8 rhythms that you have in Flamenco, but also in all sorts of Latin rhythms.

Jelly Roll Morton is famously quoted to claim that the music needs a Spanish tinge to it. A lot of that comes from a tresillo / cinquillo rhythm superimposed on the 2/4 or 4/4 marching beat. (Being from Germany, I know my marches.)


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[ccroft]

Where's old Bonritmos when we need him? The african influence on 'latin music' is all about the rhythms, and that is huge in all of 'The New World'.

The history of jazz swing can be found in ketu candomble rhythms

Latin comping with a bass line

[mr. beaumont]

Can you post examples of the music you're talking about?

When I think of South American music, the African influence is very strong.

[ccroft]

Where's old Bonritmos when we need him?

Here he is demonstrating Afro-Brazilian beats in everything from JellyRoll to Coltrane:

[rpjazzguitar]

The Firestone Library says that about 12 million Africans were brought to the New World as slaves. It says nearly half went to Brazil, where slavery ended in 1888.

The shortest Atlantic crossing is between Senegal and the NE of Brazil. So, the influence of African culture is particularly strong there; and it certainly had profound impacts elsewhere.

[Rickco]

much of what we hear in jazz today came from the Moors, Jews and Arab influences transported by the Spanish.