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Originally Posted by joelf
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07-17-2021 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by zdub
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07-17-2021, 09:06 PM #28joelf Guest
Say what you will. I appreciate him and he and Bruce DID have jazz credentials and aspirations.
But let's look at the record. Baker states in the film that Cream was a 'jazz group'. Now, please, I DON'T want to open the floodgates here. But arena rock was what was killing jazz, and driving many players to Europe. I can see Jimi Hendrix as being very jazz-influenced and a talent with phenomenal ears. But Cream? Listen to their live performances to see how loud; pretentious; repetitive and thin their music really was. And listen to Baker thudding away. Those guys weren't only tripping on drugs but themselves.
And it's a shame, b/c the studio LPs really hold up. I guess it's the old story about egos coming to the party and gouging themselves. Eric Clapton seems to be the most humble, but what do I know? Anyway, he survived pretty intact and I'm glad for him.
But i meant what I said about Baker's dynamic level. Listen to ANY performance in the film and find ANY dynamic variety---I double-dare yiz. His playing was as overblown and self-important as he was. Jazz drummers play for the group. Did he? Listen to the facts...
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07-17-2021, 09:17 PM #29joelf Guest
It's just that banging is a music killer.
Staying with rock, I found Little Richard & Jerry Lee Lewis good entertainers, but their banging makes them unlistenable. Billy Joel & Elton John entertain just as much but are 100 times the musicians. They know form; you can hear their training and seriousness. The songwriting reflects it. Elton John, as Reg Dwight, actually made a living as a jazz pianist early on. Could Jerry Lee?
This is what turns people off to rock---the baseness of it at its worst, and the popularity is depressing to serious musicians and intelligent people.
It's a miracle Frank Zappa went over as big as he did---and heartening...
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Originally Posted by joelf
As far as Hendrix, his influences were R&B and blues. And although he jammed with folks like McLaughlin and Coryell, I definitely wouldn't call him "jazz influenced".
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07-17-2021, 11:00 PM #31joelf Guest
Eddie Diehl was the guy who said Hendrix was a jazz player (and Eddie HATED rock)---and I agree. His rhythmic sense was way more complex than the average rock or blueser---lotta superimposition. The other jazz-influenced player was (is) Buzzy Feiten, still a favorite.
I was around and listening in the late '60s-early '70s. It was a very fertile period---probably the creative peak of rock. But there was a lot of cross-pollenization going on, everyone listening and learning from each other. It was very good for jazz, despite some unfortunate elitist and dismissive remarks by Bill Evans. He should've known better, he was smarter than that...
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
2. When boomers had grown up.
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07-18-2021, 04:02 PM #33joelf GuestOriginally Posted by joelf
It's very moving.
Watching it I have to dial back some of my comments about Josef Zawinul. His affection and respect for Jaco were genuine. You can't fake those things.
It's strange to have right in the middle gotten a desperate call from my brother, who is in the throes of the same illness Jaco had. He's living in an assisted living facility in Fla.---a place he doesn't like or trust, and neither do I. But he's in crisis and acting out and has no one there. I may have to make a trip. Gonna talk to the assistant director tomorrow and check in w/my bro and see what can be done.
Bipolar is a serious condition, and easily misunderstood. I used to see Jaco in his last days. He came into the Jazz Cultural Theater barefoot, wanting to play with a pick. People were avoiding him b/c of erratic behavior. And we know how it ended.
But there's help; hope; and support. If you know someone with bipolar 2---the more serious form---do what you can, even if it's just to listen. Everyone deserves to feel they're cared for and not alone...
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Is this about pop music? Screw that. Anyway, I see Weather Report and Cream have been mentioned, so...
Guitarists Matteo Mancuso, Nir Felder, Julian Lage, Matthew Stevens, Sandra Hempel, Gilad..... are all currently breaking new ground one way or another. It's up to you if you want to listen or not.
Laura Mvula - I remember a sensational collab. with Snarky Puppy. Great arrangement in the Conditional clip, albeit very midi-sounding. Definitely warrants further listening.
Jimi H. was undoubtedly influenced and inspired by the improvisational freedom of 60s jazz, but he was 100 miles away from any notion of jazz harmony, IMO. And I don't care what Miles said
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Originally Posted by joelf
BBC Radio 6 Music - Gilles Peterson, Elton John Words and Music
TBH I grew up on Rock, and I have a soft spot for it, but most of the criticisms levelled against hip hop etc had already been levelled against rock 40 or 50 years earlier... So I just put it down to nostalgia really, choose your preferred and comfortable noise. Select whatever aesthetic criteria suit your prejudices best. ('that isn't a song? It's just a modal vamp?' 'that's not singing, it's just talking!', 'those parallel fifths are destroying harmony', 'music went wrong when they brought in the equal tempered scale' etc)
For Beato the 90's - grunge, alt-rock - was a golden age. Many here disagree no doubt. Besides wasn't Ricky B rhapsodising about Billie Eilish the other week? I actually think he's pretty open. But he also knows how to do click bait.
It's all fine, but I don't need to take any of this guff seriously. I like what I like, and the rest I ignore.
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07-18-2021, 06:58 PM #36joelf GuestOriginally Posted by Christian Miller
What did Duke say? 'There's only 2 kinds of music: good and bad'. Who am I to argue?...
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As stated no shortage of great young players like Mancuso. It's the actual material or newer songs being written that's weak imo.
Mancuso and his trio cover Weather Report and other Jazz greats as well.
But where is his material?
I'm old and jaded, but I was the same way as a teenager. I wanted more than just technique or rehashed ideas not preformed as well.
Where's the synergy like Weather Report or Chick Corea Light as a Feather, James Brown, Edgar White and the White Trash, even The Police?
Nothing verges on being groundbreaking or becoming a standard in the future.
It seems to be cash in on the You Tube current environment.
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I worry about Lorde.
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Originally Posted by jads57
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
Completely irrelevant: what are the numbers on the set list? I'm assuming there isn't a drum pad lol..
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Hi, C
Notice the interesting tonal variations when she repeatedly points her two index fingers. And, the animal skin hats definitely contribute to a more earthy, natural tone. This is certainly the future of quality pop music.
Play live . . . Marinero
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So the point I'm making is, the musicians, arrangers, etc were generally the ones that brought the magic! Sure it takes a talented front person as well. But it's the Synergy of all of it together.
Now that delivery system of music has changed the model to cheapen the cost, as well as let all amateurs on the field. It has become Way less musically interesting overall. It's about sales and visual stimulation.
Much like how comic book and CIG took over movies. If that's your thing, then you will be happy. But there's a huge difference between depth and shallow entertainment.
Also the things that are considered Hip these days are weak musically imo!
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Originally Posted by jads57
I imagine it looks something like this
Target Age For Entertainment Dollar
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07-19-2021, 01:04 PM #44joelf Guest
Not mine, thanks.
Geez...
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Originally Posted by pauln
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Originally Posted by pauln
The group (in the US) that spends the most entertainment dollars annually is Generation X ($3,921), followed by Boomers ($3,801), and then Millennials ($2,391). (These figures are the average for members of these groups; some members spend much more while others spend much less.) These three groups together outnumber teens over 3 to 1. Generation Z (-1997-2012) slightly outnumbers Gen X but is smaller than the other two. Taken together, Millennials, Gen X and Boomers are over 200 million people while Gen Z is 67 million, and that group includes people up to 24, so many of them are outside your imagined Target Audience for Entertainment Dollars.
The average teen doesn't have enough income to spend as much as the other groups on entertainment. (What teens tend to have to spend is TIME.) The two things teens spend most of their money on are clothing and food. Most of what teens spend comes from their parents. (Roughly 60 percent.) Granted, they have some influence on what their parents buy.
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I can't listen to someone ramble without stating a premise..
Popular music may have gotten worse, but music as a whole today is so vast that it doesn't even matter. Plus there's the internet so you can learn or listen to absolutely whatever you want. I prefer having that advantage even if pop music or culture can be stupid.
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And not have to pay for it either. That's exactly why there's no great Music any longer!
Think about it rationally, everyone no matter the profession it is, needs to get paid. Other wise you are working for tips or free!
And yes YouTube likes get advertisers, but that's not a great revenue model for an entire industry. As I keep saying you will not find these problems with other professions.
And no you can't play doctor or lawyer without a Liscence. But you certainly can in any of the arts. So long as it isn't a teacher at a school or college. Then you need a Masters!
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Not about our spending.
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Originally Posted by Marcel_A
If it shows that the target is the group that spends the least, on average, for entertainment, it's simply wrong.
The 18-34 demographic is the main focus of advertisers, as that group is seen as having the most money to blow on entertainment. (And if you get young folk to latch onto your brand, they may well be repeat customers for decades.)
Obviously, if you are selling denture cream, the 18-34 year old crowd is not where you look to get a lot of business.
If you are selling LEGOs, your target is little kids (and their parents, who will actually buy the LEGOs).
The Rolling Stones will resume their No Filter tour in September. Pit tickets start at $500.(That will add up to millions of entertainment dollars.) The target audience for them is not 15-year-olds.
One person may be in several target audiences (-urbanite, a professional, member of a gym, a bicyclist, a vegan, fan of death metal, player of video games, regular movie-goer, college graduate, home owner, renter, someone who dines out once a week...)
Home, guitar playing and travel
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