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Originally Posted by Marinero
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06-10-2020 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
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"Too bad we can't just sit down and jam. That tells the truth about musicianship: the ability to listen and integrate into unknown material." Thump
Hi, T,
So, for the sake of argument, would you use that standard for, say, Vladimir Horowitz, Andre Segovia, Pablo Casals,or Itzhak Pearlman? And, would that tell you their level of musicianship? Let's sit down and jam? Good playing . . . Marinero
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
Hi, L,
And what percentage of working musicians does he represent? Certainly less than 1% unless, of course, you talking about rockers. Good playing . . . Marinero
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Yeah, Metheny doesn't really count.
He kind of got in at the right time as well, though....
I'd be interested to know how things work out for him at the moment. I suspect the money is much tighter, if what Scott Henderson etc are saying applies to him. IIRC Scott said he basically tours for fun, there's not much profit in it...
Successful musicians are getting squeezed on tours because the income from recordings isn't there any more. I don't want to play into 'the Boomers had it easy' narrative... It wasn't easy... but it was easier to make money playing music in that generation if you negotiated the hurdles and issues. If you set yourself up right then you are sitting pretty now. If you assumed the money would flow in forever, I think you are pretty much screwed now.
Music is more democratised now - very easy to record etc - but the flip side is its much harder to make money passively. The answer for pretty much everyone is - internet. Why do you think so many top players have done online courses? Why is Leland Sklar doing vlogs, do you think?
Things change. A professional musician has to adapt to the environment to earn living. The industry is undergoing a HUGE realignment right now for obvious reasons. The likely result is that even more of it will shift online.
Take the top players of today. I think they couldn't make it to that Metheny tier. The circuit, distribution and recording revenue no longer exists as it did in the late 70s. I don't think anyone's making that type of money in jazz ATM. The (steady) money is in education.
Might be wrong, but that's the impression I get.
It's telling how little of this thread has focussed on the fact that to be playing music professionally, you need a really broad set of skills (and be content to put up with the bullshit - 'Metheny drove the tour car', should be a saying) as much as being able to play really well. It's almost like a lot of people have no experience trying to play music for a living, or any friends that do.
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Christian,
You're giving me flashbacks of 4pm weekday load-ins for a 10pm gig. I think the band got paid $25 TOTAL and they acted like they were doing us a favor.
All part of why I'm not a professional musician.
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I am just a guitar-playing pensioner.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
I tried to make a living at music in the late 70s early 80s, working that hard to scrape by at or near the poverty level makes absolutely no sense to me. I didn't enjoy the hassle of being in and out of gigging bands anyways, I think grinding away as a CPA is more enjoyable than that. Do I respect musicians that make it as a professional musician, maybe a little. Do I respect nurses more, absolutely.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
It is certainly possible for a established pro with high end teaching and good session gigs to earn 60K GBP, which may or may not be equivalent. (That’s a pretty decent annual income.) But that’s someone with a uni teaching gig.
I have no idea. Also US incomes don’t seem to scale to UK incomes by exchange rate.
100K looks like a lot, but might be fairly normal for a 9-5 in the US.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
but yeah not missing the general grind of functions season in terms of the faff. Money on the other hand :-(
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Wow where to start answering some of the above posts? Apparently didn't read what I've posted about styles of music I play. I do play Jazz which encompasses Standards from Duke Ellington, George Gershwin, Great American Songbook etc to Miles Davis compositions Solar, Green in blue, John Coltrane s Naima, Thelonius Monk compositions, to more modern Freddie Hubbard Red Clay, Herbie Hancock Tell Me a Bedtime Story.
I also have played many Latin Bossa amd Samba songs, a bit of Puerto Rican Bomba , Cuban, etc.
This was all learned along the way performing gigs with many different singers and instrumentalists. One great lesson was playing with Estaire Godinez Latin Percussionist. I realized how lame my feel was to playing Bosses and Sambas on simpler material such as Girl From Ipanema. This lesson was learned over and over by great musicians from different styles who where great musicians.
You can't learn this in school or book, video,etc. And this IS WHAT I'm talking about in these posts. Amateurs DON'T have time on the bandstand. I was lucky to live in an age of gigging 6 nights a week. And along the way is how you really learn from other musicians and situations. Just like any profession, experience is key!
And again only 2 of you have said what you do for a living. I appreciate your response!
But it's a couple of the most opinionated posters who won't say what they do. This is exactly the type of person who poses as an expert on a subject they have no or little actual experience in. And again I'm just a guitarist who made a very modest living at best. I'm in no way bragging about my level other than as a Journeyman Musician.
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At the moment there are no gigs, so it’s all a bit of a moot point what anyone does for a living. we all have to adapt and survive.
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Marinero, to your questions about reading charts vs memorizing songs. Charts are always great to have, but I try to commit the songs to memory so I can listen to other musicians better and interact with them more freely.
Also playing the repertoire on the gig night after night really helps. But unless you are incredibly lucky to work with the same band on a consistent gig. This becomes much harder and charts really help. If you happen to have photographic memory and great or perfect pitch then it's a different ballgame. And I've run into a couple of these people over the years.
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Originally Posted by jads57
Also words are just hot air. If you think you are above everybody else who don't do music as their sole income, please put a video of yourself playing jazz and blow us away. No more unverifiable empty words.
In my experience when someone posts with such grandiose attitude, they are delusional about their place in relation to others and they don't have the goods to back it up.Last edited by Tal_175; 06-10-2020 at 04:39 PM.
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I played in a semi-pro band for a couple of years in my spare time, just after I started work. We played pop/rock covers, we rehearsed a lot and we were quite good, with a repertoire of 60 tunes. We got quite a lot of gigs locally, but mainly on Saturdays as we all had day jobs.
As I recall the most money we ever got was £250 for a Christmas gig at a hospital social club, but that had to go round 5 of us (this was in the early 1980s). I got tired of driving home knackered in the early hours and unloading amps and stuff. At that rate there was no way I would consider music as a profession.
In any case, by that stage I had become obsessed with only playing jazz, and I knew there was no way I could play that for a living, since my jazz skills were zero at that point.
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Still waiting for you to post what you do for a livingTal 175?
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Originally Posted by jads57
Look I can think of two other forum members who had similar condescending, know at all attitudes at times towards the forum membership in general (none of them has posted in this thread). To their defence they posted many instances of their performances for others to view. To some maybe they didn't back up their attitudes with their skills and to others they did. At least they didn't need to hide it.
You are the only member I know who claims expertise over others and considers himself the "real" musician. Admits being narcissistic and negative towards others but believes to have earned it. Yet has nothing to show for other than posting hot air.Last edited by Tal_175; 06-10-2020 at 02:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by Marinero
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Originally Posted by Marinero
To answer you directly, of course those guys are great musicians. However, denigrating any musician for the musical milieu they work in is to my mind silly. My point in writing what you quoted was to point out that someone who's proud in an overweening manner of his own musicianship -- to the point of making his own approach definitional -- can be brought up a-cropper simply by having to make music in a different setting, format, style, and so on.
Rather than worry about whether Joe Blow can do what I do as well as I do, I'd rather enjoy what they do on its own terms, understanding that my preferences in music do not define what is and isn't musicianship.
For the record, I can read staff, painfully slowly. I've learnt plenty of songs that way. I've learnt plenty by ear. I've had folks show me songs. I don't care what it takes, if you make good music come out of your speaker -- or horn, or piano -- you're a musician in my book. Being able to read or write staff doesn't translate to instrumental sensitivity that translates into tapping feet, dancing bodies, or ruminant listening. Those things come from a musician who is not only playing the song, but letting the song play him.
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IMO there is no level of expertise as a player which justifies being condescending to those you see as lesser players.
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I'll comment on the pro vs amateur issue.
I know several pro players with amazing skills who have given up trying to make a living playing. One I'm thinking of has a Grammy, last time I saw him was at Dizzy's in NYC, has done multiple European tours and plays multiple instruments at a pro level.
Then he had a baby and decided to switch to software engineering.
I haven't had a chance to ask him why, but I'm guessing it's the amount of money, the security and the travel.
He's not the only one. Making a living as a performing musician is tough even without Covid. In this area, it seems like the top players also teach and some have other income streams, like merchandise sales, side-gigs doing audio engineering and so forth.
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Again answering questions with questions Tal 175? I've listed my credentials and you certainly can Google my name is John Della Selva, and I live in St. Paul,Mn.
I've worked in theTwin Cities by choice for the last 40 years. You should find me in Youtube videos under the following that I am aware of.
Jay Bee and the Routine, Doug Maynard Band, Jose James and Moments Notice,
Steve Clark and the Working Stiffs. Soul Collective with Debbie Duncan and Cynthia Johnson. Possibly Prudence Johnson, Willie Murphy at Famous Daves club, Dr. Mambas Combo, Men Eat Out at the Whiskey Junction, Bruce Henry,
I do not post videos myself or promoting myself. Sorry not interested in self promotion. I have recorded with Alexander O Neil on his first album, The Jets, others as well you can look them up as well.
Okay now your turn what do you do?
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Originally Posted by jads57
Dude it's none of your business what I do for a living. This is not a contest. I'm not making extra ordinary claims about where I stand as a musician and put down others. I have nothing to prove to you. It's your burden not mine. Comes with the attitude and trolling the thread.Last edited by Tal_175; 06-10-2020 at 05:31 PM.
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This dialogue has one thing in common that must not be forgotten: musicians/performers of all levels, whether professionals or hobbyists, have something that 99% of the world's population doesn't have(IMO) . . . a desire to speak through music and to strive for the illusive quest for Beauty. And, I think the passions and sensitivities shown here by us are illustrative of this notion. I have had a very interesting life,by most peoples standards, rubbing shoulders with novelists, poets, visual artists, sculptors,as well as successful creative entrepreneurs, and I can say ,without hesitation, that musicians, by far, are the most interesting people I know. I have no animus for anyone here and will continue to enjoy these interesting and useful perspectives that challenge how we perceive/reveal ourselves and our music. I hope others share my feelings.
Good playing . . . Marinero
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But it does share the common thing as well I can't stand about the business. Wannabes and Posers who are I interested in being famous or at least latching on to that aspect of the business.
That has really become the predominant aspect of music nowadays due to YouTube self promotion and getting advertisers.
It use to be you only had sleazy booking agents ,club owners, and record A& R types to contend with. Along with the guitarists out to steal your gig,lol!
Tal 175 your afraid to say what you do for a living ? I'm not insulting other occupation at all. And as Ive repeatedly stated I'm no authority on other occupations except for eating Pizza,Lol!
And again I've no condescension as far as amateurs. It's just when they pose as authorities on subjects they know enough to be dangerous!
Elias Prinz -- young talent from Munich
Yesterday, 10:24 PM in The Players