The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    First, if you dont believe in talent, please save that for another thread or start your own. I know it's been debated, but I'm of the belief that there is, so please proceed accordingly.

    I'm a former golf professional and always had an aptitude for sports/recreation. I gave golf lessons for almost 10 years and taught many folks varying degrees of ability. I always admired the folks who really didn't have any ability and who's potential was not that great. They seemed very much to enjoy it still and more than many "good" players.

    Anyway, I have a creative/artistic side that I believe I got from my Mom, but isn't as strong as my athletic side for lack of a better word. Musically, our family has no real history of it other than popular music appreciators/listeners. I would say my "ear" or appreciation for music has been higher than most of my friends and family that I grew up with, but I wouldn't consider that a "talent" so to speak. So, in trying to learn to play anything close to Jazz, I understood early that at best I might be able to eventually physically perform a few things with a lot of practice because I had decent eye hand coordination, but that I was never going to understand it on any real kind of level. Just in the shower this morning I was listening to Miles play "On Green Dolphin Street" live and I realized that while I like it a lot, I really dont understand what's going on. The flurry of notes at times during the song I know are musical, but I cant follow them, etc.

    Soooooooo, why am I even attempting to play/do something that I suck at and will never "understand" or be anything other than at BEST be someone who can reproduce (shittily) what someone else has played? For me, it's a few reasons, but I'd like to hear from others who are similar and hear about their "why's" and "how's". Maybe I wont feel so alone, haha!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I don't see much of a direct relationship between talent and understanding. I.e. understanding is learned behavior. E.g. with golf learning what club to use for certain shots; Often the caddy has a better understanding of this than the player, but clearly the player has more talent (which in this example would be the ability to use the selected club to its full advantage).

    I have only limited musical talent but a lot of musical understanding (a lot gained at this forum). I played violin as a kid \ teen and learned music is a formal way. When I decided to play jazz guitar a lot of my musical understanding didn't help where I needed help; playing in rhythm and sounding good. To addressed this I stopped playing jazz standards and just focused on I\IV\V blues. This really helped me and when I went back to playing jazz standards I sounded a lot better (and my friends wouldn't give me the fish-eye because my rhythm was OFF.

  4. #3

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    I have what is probably the population average ability in music. Pitch recognition is pretty good, time can be spotty. But I love this music, and I love this instrument. So I keep on, playing more for the pleasure of doing it.

  5. #4

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    I know that I have no talent for playing the guitar, but I do it because I enjoy it. There are few things in life that I had rather do. Having little talent does nothing to prevent enjoyment. I find joy both in listening to and in playing music. More talent might make playing more of a joy, but I don't think that's certain. I spent most of my life in vocations that prevented much playing of music, but now in retirement I'm playing every day, and enjoying it far more than I did my work. That does not surprise me.

  6. #5

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    I don’t view myself as particularly talented

  7. #6

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    I have no talent, all I did was stubbornly persist in buggering about on the guitar until after about 20 years I found I could play something resembling a decent jazz solo. The only reason for persisting with such a hopeless task was that it was fun.

  8. #7

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    Let's suppose we all could agree on who the most talented player is.

    Should the #2 guy stop playing?

    I'm not convinced that how talented you are correlates all that well with how much fun you have playing.

    Well, it does look like more fun when I hear great players making great music. But amateur players trying their best is fun too.

  9. #8

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    i know where you are coming from i have played for years never seam to get any better but i do enjoy the little victories i some times have

  10. #9

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    I have no talent for music, a poor ear, slow fingers, bad musical memory, lack of theoretical knowledge.... Lots of mates at school were the opposite and I always struggled to keep up. But keeping at it for 45 years means I can at least play a little these days, and most importantly of all I listen to other people and know when to shut up. Jazz, though, is something I doubt I'll get even had I another 45 years. But I love music and playing so I shall keep at it!

  11. #10

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    I think this is the second time I am posting this but first time was years ago (also see my pithy sig quote people tell me I am talented but I think they are just polite)

    Don't Nobody Love the Game More Than Me - YouTube

  12. #11

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    As for having fun playing jazz guitar; this has always been true for me regardless of my ability, but it wasn't much fun for my friends. E.g. I got a lot of joy playing jazz standards with Band in the Box, but until I really worked on my rhythm (e.g. using BITB but only with a bass track), and that focus on playing simple blues tunes until I sounded more professional \ musical, it was a struggle for my more experienced \ talented friends to listen to my hacking. Now with most of them it is a nice experience.

    Now one guy doesn't play music for 'fun' but instead of the challenge,,, and we don't really play much actual music; e.g. half way thru a tune he will stop and say 'Hey, I would use these voicing, or you're starting your solo on the root too much,,, etc...", he took lessons with Ron Eschete and he knows a lot,,,, but I had to change how I viewed playing with him as not-for-enjoyment, but as more-of-a-lesson.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMgolf66
    Soooooooo, why am I even attempting to play/do something that I suck at and will never "understand" or be anything other than at BEST be someone who can reproduce (shittily) what someone else has played? For me, it's a few reasons, but I'd like to hear from others who are similar and hear about their "why's" and "how's". Maybe I wont feel so alone, haha!
    Because G. K. Chesterton was right: If something is worth doing, it's worth doing badly. ;o)

    I'll never be any great shakes at chess but I still like to play.

    Back to guitar. Music is vast. Maybe if reproducing what others have done is disappointing, that's an invitation to write your own material. Or make your own arrangements of standards. Start where you are----"What can I do that doesn't make me want to throw away my guitar?"---and work out from there.

    I still want to quit every other day. Nothing in all of my life will ever frustrate me more than the guitar has. But I won't quit.
    Instead of thinking about how well or poorly you play, change the question to, 'did I play today?' Playing every day was the sea change for me. It is not the mission of any given day to be great; the job is to show up and do what I can. Some days are better than others. One is rarely the same as the next. Just keep going until you've forgotten how to stop. The question of how good you are (etc) can be left to others who aren't busy playing every day. (Hope this helps.)

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Nothing in all of my life will ever frustrate me more than the guitar has. But I won't quit.
    So well said!

    And, I believe that's true of the top pros as well, never as much as right now.

    If you are the best performing musician in the world right now, you still don't have any live performance gigs.

    All that effort to reach your level and you have no idea when you'll be able to play before a live audience again.

    Even before the virus ... Charlie Parker reportedly never made more than $300 per week. I'm guessing he felt frustrated.

    I've been listening to guitarwank, a great podcast. Top players talking about their craft and, to some extent, their lives. These are successful players, but they often talk about challenges.

  15. #14

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    "Talent is God's gift to you. What you do with it is your gift to God." So said a very talented and wise person I know. The Roman talent was considered the weight a man could bear. If you have talent, use it. If, like myself, you lack talent but love what you do, why not. I've been banging my head up against my limitations for half- a century now, and I think I'm beginning to make progress. I still love it. I'm going to keep doing in one form or another for as long as I can.

  16. #15

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    I don't consider myself talented. Knowlegable, yes.

  17. #16

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    Most things most people do most of the time with no talent anyway.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Because G. K. Chesterton was right: If something is worth doing, it's worth doing badly. ;o)

    I'll never be any great shakes at chess but I still like to play.

    Back to guitar. Music is vast. Maybe if reproducing what others have done is disappointing, that's an invitation to write your own material. Or make your own arrangements of standards. Start where you are----"What can I do that doesn't make me want to throw away my guitar?"---and work out from there.

    I still want to quit every other day. Nothing in all of my life will ever frustrate me more than the guitar has. But I won't quit.
    Instead of thinking about how well or poorly you play, change the question to, 'did I play today?' Playing every day was the sea change for me. It is not the mission of any given day to be great; the job is to show up and do what I can. Some days are better than others. One is rarely the same as the next. Just keep going until you've forgotten how to stop. The question of how good you are (etc) can be left to others who aren't busy playing every day. (Hope this helps.)
    Thank you, I really enjoyed this reply.

  19. #18

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    I always remember my mom telling me, after hearing me practice long hours in my room, 'you keep on playing son, you know, even people with mediocre abilities can achieve something if they persist'. Thank you mom!

  20. #19

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    I had absolutely no god given musical ability. Everything I have, I worked for.

    And I was lazy.

    I didn't really work hard. I worked a lot. There were times in my life I played 10 hours a day. If only i could have actually PRACTICED instead of dicking around. I could be a lot better than I am now. I'd like to go back and slap the shit out of 15 year old me.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I had absolutely no god given musical ability. Everything I have, I worked for.

    And I was lazy.

    I didn't really work hard. I worked a lot. There were times in my life I played 10 hours a day. If only i could have actually PRACTICED instead of dicking around. I could be a lot better than I am now. I'd like to go back and slap the shit out of 15 year old me.
    Soooooooo......you're saying there's a chance!
    Just gotta get the time machine and get to work.

  22. #21

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    Interesting to come across this thread just as I am starting to read this book. Chapter 2 is titled ‘The Talent Trap - It’s What You Learn, Not What You Were Given.’ I have more innate musical ability than some, far less than others. I’ve worked hard through the years to improve my skills within the constraints of a full time job and raising children and being a good husband. I’ve bounced around a bit in terms of my musical focus, currently trying to acquire the ability to read standard notation fluently and to learn some of the basics of playing jazz. I love the guitar and love playing music. I love learning and improving. I will never be as good as my guitar heroes, but I still love the effort of striving for more skill and expressive abilities to make me a better musician.

  23. #22

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    I have been blessed to have spent a lot of time with a lot of very good musicians in the last dozen years or more, and some are much more naturally talented/gifted musically than others. But, I have seen that desire, hard work and perseverance is the great equalizer. Everyone respects musical competence gained by a strong work ethic, like anything else in life.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Because G. K. Chesterton was right: If something is worth doing, it's worth doing badly. ;o)
    Now THAT is a great quote!

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by docsteve
    Now THAT is a great quote!
    Now there's a man after my own heart. No talent and no one would call it playing because I only play for my teacher and he's too nice. Still, every week I see some little improvement. Something I couldn't do before and whammo, there's hope. Of course at 73 the hope is likely in another lifetime.

  26. #25

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    i know im wearing out my welcome on the corona virus thread , but , i see a trend on this thread and i at least want to pull down my mask a little and offer a differant perspective.

    i beleive very much in my talent. i beleive i was born with it and what makes me talented is i love my vision and playing so much since i was young, that i practiced very hard , and i went to the sources of the music and put myself to the test . i would not be able to play well if i didnt obcess on playing .

    i beleive in my vision. i beleive in it so much i started my record lables because i beleived with all my heart i can make as good music as any one the record companies have put out. i beleive i can stand my records up to anyone in a listening context and they will not wilt. im talking about your idols.

    i beleive i can stand my vision as performed on stage with a group up to anyone, if i can pick my people, and too many have died that i can do this the best i could , but i honestly beleive that . i can go on stage and go toe to toe with anybody playing my music , not theirs. i beleive i can put together the best set list and make it have the best flow with a powerful beginning strong middle and huge climax , and lean and sleek with little kicks and over arranging for the maximum feeling it and get in and just kill it , and i mean like you are going to war

    i beleve i can compete with anybody in up bop, i beleive i can compete with anybody at samba , including your favorites rp ( hahha) , any day , any time anywhere...its just how i feel deep in my heart. im talking about what i know how to play. what i dont know how to play , i dont do well at all , its that simple

    you cant parachute into new york and compete profesionaly without some kind of huge condfidence in your playing. the compitiion is tough and there are huge elbows under the boards. you have to develope confidence and toughness to get in there and compete.

    i have few freinds from new york, lots of colleagues, but, you have to walk the walk on your own and compete. and , i can tell you, for each one of your idols, there is a line of cats behind them that are just as talented. you think jaco is the best? what about marcus miller, who i played with?

    im not saying you have to be an a hole, or back stab , but plenty do, but you have to beleive in yourself and you have to fight hard in the deep competition . dont be afraid to love what you play