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Quincy Jones also said, "The Fender bass player Carol Kaye...could do anything and leave the men in the dust." He was thinking of studio work, but lots of jazz heavyweights did studio work, so this is high praise indeed.
Originally Posted by docsteve
Also, Ron Carter did something right too! ;o)
When doing one's own material, there is a place for those who "get it across" without being exactly accurate. (This goes for singers too. I don't think anyone takes Willie Nelson or Bob Dylan to be great singers, but they wrote their own stuff and "got it across." Now they can do things they didn't write and get them across too. Not to a singing teacher's standards, perhaps, but with a certain conviction that appeals to many.)
Still, I wouldn't call Paul McCartney a "lousy" bass player!
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12-12-2018 12:07 PM
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I'm thinking it's too self-limiting to restrict this to music. What about the arts in general? So many talented writers never make it big, etc... Maybe part of this is just supply and demand, or some sort of popularity filter -- there can only be so many popular artists in any field.
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With the exception of Doors and CCR, I don't really consider it rock. My life wouldn't change much if I never listened to those bands TBH. In the case of Grateful Dead... it would be better if I never did Originally Posted by JGinNJ
Speaking on topic, how those guys ever made it? I'd say if they could do it, none of us has anything to fear!
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I also think you need to put on a show. A lot of very talented people are quite shy and they don't project that well but if you can play/sing/act and you project then you get the attention.
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It certainly happens in other fields. There are only so many theaters on Broadway... Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
I think one difference nowadays is that one is either BIG or nothing---there used to be more of a middle ground. Take a band from my youth, Santana. They were successful but not huge. (Which was fine.) The Band was successful but not huge. I remember an interview with members of Blue Oyster Cult and they felt they could sell 250,000 copies of The Next Album, regardless. That was their core audience. Not huge. But not chopped liver either. There was a place (-quite a few places) for bands at that level.
Now it's more like a million bands selling a thousand records each, and two million bands selling even less.
Maybe we have too many musicians... (Not that I'm about to quit, though I'm not looking to make any money at it.)
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Watching the OP's video, the presenter seemed like he was bitter about the industry, talking about luck mattering more than hard work or proficiency, the evil executives, etc, but ironically yet another guy who was pushing his music school on-line.
I don't think the making it to the top, being a star question is even relevant to jazz guitarists, or to many other kinds of music. The jazz musicians I know or have met , who make a living at it tour a lot, and/or teach. The local singer-songwriter & rockers I know gig part-time and have regular jobs or are retired.
There is room to be a touring musician, playing smaller venues. My wife runs a theater that books a lot of regional and national Americana, roots music, gypsy jazz acts. It's hard for everybody to make it work financially- the audience has to accept the ticket price, the cost to run a venue is substantial, and the talent has to get paid, and draw enough of a crowd to cover it all.
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I think you're right on Mark...it seems like a supply/demand issue at times.
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Fleetwood Mac wasn't any American at all until Stevie and Lindsay joined in 1975. Originally Posted by JGinNJ
Also CSNY was only half American--Nash was British and Young Canadian.
Anyway I take your point. There were a lot of great American bands in rock, not to mention soul. There was the famous San Francisco sound, the Laurel Canyon groups including the Byrds, Dylan and the upstate New York musicians, Muscle Shoals and the Southern rockers.
I would say the British invasion lit a fire under a dormant rock scene in America, but then it took off in a hundred directions.
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the comment that noted Robert Fripps' insight might also include Frank Zappa..who when interviewed years ago..was asked "what do you do." and Frank stopped all the snickering at his long hair by a studio audience with.."Im a business man!" and indeed to not see a rock band or any kind of musical/artistic public performance connected to financial resources has much to learn about longevity in the public eye..
top quality musicians/artists have realized the "starving artist" is not a romantic goal..and if your in a group of 4 or more people and your the main person who hires and fires .. you have to do alot of homework to ensure the band gets paid..travel and hotels etc get booked and the many other details that the average concert goer / music consumer does not have to think about..and are not expected too..
larry carlton is not a household name..the man tours alot..as do many other players..this is how they pay the bills and its not a walk in the park..even though to see LC on stage he seems so relaxed and casual while his 335 is on fire..has he "made it"? .. my view..yes..and quite a few steps beyond...
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I like the US bands, but they didn't rock like the UK bands. Different feel. It's all chilled out, easy going. I mean I know every one was massively into the nose candy in LA, but even so, they probably needed it to get off their sun loungers. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Early Fleetwood Mac were a totally different band of course.
(And, don't even talk about Steely Dan, great musicians, but comparing a band like that to the Who is risible.)
I honestly think the FM rock sound makes most sense in the US, esp the West Coast... In Blighty it was all a bit more lairy.
And that's why Frampton was really a secret American :-)
Allman etc... Quite possible for someone to not get any of that music, but be a massive Zeppelin fan. Like my dad.
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Perfectly said mate, exactly my view. Originally Posted by christianm77
Those American bands mentioned didn't make much impact outside of the country. In UK and Europe, starting from The Beatles, The Rollings Stones, The Who, continued with Led Zep, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Nazareth... That was known as Rock Music! Almost no Americans at the time (maybe Aerosmith?) could match this sound, attitude, drive!
Allman Bros who?
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I was thinking the same thing. The Jimi Hendrix Experience were also important. And Santana. I wasn't a big fan of The Byrds, but they've had a lasting influence. Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers. Talking Heads. Blondie. Television. ZZ Top. The Velvet Underground. The Band (-largely Canadian, admittedly.) Iggy & the Stooges. Aerosmith. Originally Posted by JGinNJ
And some funk / soul bands that appealed to many rock fans and were decidedly American: Sly & the Family Stone, Parlaiment / Funkadelic, Ohio Players, Isley Brothers...
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Jimi Hendrix Experience was an English band. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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True. Jimi had to come to London to make it.
Eventually he got a bit sick of UK stodgy time/feel though, went back to the US & got together with Buddy Miles. I love the Band of Gypsies stuff though, Machine Gun live....
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In my opinion there are 3 kinds of people that play music:
1. Those that try and no matter how hard they work at it are never going to get it.
2. Those that work hard at playing and can be reasonably good, (probably many of us here) they are out doing gigs, have some local following blah blah blah...
3. Visionary’s, these are rare, talented individuals that innovate and cause change in the direction of music. They are leaders not followers and there contribution changes the course of what the masses listen to.
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Okay, then, Jimi Hendrix was American and a large chapter in the history of rock and roll. Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell (-and I really liked Mitch's drumming) are footnotes. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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In Joe Jackson's memoir, "A Cure for Gravity" he states he is often asked for advice from aspiring musicians. He states I have two advices. Number one: "go to law school". Number two: follow what you have a passion for without regard to musical business politics. I'm not sure the second one works as well anymore in todays musical climate.
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Au contraire - I think it is a more and more the only reason to do music. Originally Posted by jaco
Conventional music industry is not what it was to say the least.
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I've said this couple of times on the forum, but am not lazy to repeat. There are too many players being referred as to as "great". Originally Posted by docsteve
It is not possible to have that many people being "great" in something worth mentioning.
So, either ...
1. they are not really that good in what they do, or ...
2. If that many people really do it that good, then the thing they do is really worthless.
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The fact is nobody wanted to know Jimi before he went to England. In American musical climate back then nobody knew how to rock either, it's not an accident he found the right bandmates in England. True, he moved to more R&B style in the end, with American rhythm section, but I personally liked it less. It was more, well, R&B and funk and jamming then hard rock. So Noel and Mitch gave the band that special sauce I prefered. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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They made it because they could do this: Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
With the exception of Doors and CCR, I don't really consider it rock. My life wouldn't change much if I never listened to those bands TBH. In the case of Grateful Dead... it would be better if I never did Speaking on topic, how those guys ever made it? I'd say if they could do it, none of us has anything to fear!
and this:
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I love you, man, but this is a bit much. It's like saying the Beatles weren't noteworthy until after their long stint in Hamburg strip clubs, so they're really German. Nonsense. The greatest early influences on Jimi's music were American---in his own words, Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, Buddy Holly, Eddie Cochran, BB King, Albert King. Lot of Curtis Mayfield too, and Ike Turner too. His stint with The Isley Brothers (and several other R&B bands) cast a long shadow over his later output. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
In your sense of the term, Jimi was never a "Rock" guitar player. And good for him!
I think this is where you and I differ. (Which is fine. To each his own.) I'm more of a rock'n'roll guy. (Than a rock guy, I mean. I don't listen to either one very much.) I can still enjoy the Stones but I don't care if I ever hear Zep, Deep Purple, or Black Sabbath again. (And I loved 'em all as a teenager.) It's funny but I think AC/DC is a better, um, balls out rock band than any of those three were. Maybe Australia is where rock REALLY got it right. ;o) Seriously, I will still listen to "Back in Black".
As much as I tried to cop licks from Page and Blackmore as a teen, I think David Gilmour's solo on "Time" is better than any solo they ever played. (And it is end-to-end American blues licks, brilliantly spaced and voiced.)
And a lot of it has to do with what the drummers do. Charlie Watts in the Stones can actually play a good rockin' beat. And the Stones are the most relentlessly American sounding of those British rock bands you mentioned above.
I think an unfortunate thing happened in America when a lot of up and coming bands here were influenced by British bands who could be very loud and some fun but really couldn't groove. (Traffic and Pink Floyd could---curiously, they don't "rock" like Zep, Purple, Sabbath, Nazareth, Uriah Heep. Hhm...) There's always been a lot of room for groove in good American music, from gospel to soul to blues to R&B to funk to swamp rock, even good rockabilly and punk like The Cramps. (The good, early Cramps---"Goo Goo Muck" with that "Get Off My Cloud" drum beat---not the sh*t with a thudding bass and drum blasts that came later and sucked.)
No stodgy beats here! (I'm in a Ray Charles mood tonight.)
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Allman. The guy who came up with this riff: Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
and rescued the tune from being a folky little ditty, as Clapton described it.
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You could argue that the guy who came up with that riff was Peppermint Harris. He wrote the tune, "As The Years Go Passing By", first recorded by Fenton Robinson and made famous by Albert King. Full marks to Duane for taking the opening vocal melody, ("There is nothing I can do..."), kicking it up a gear and placing it on a fretboard (or six, if you count all the overdubs). Originally Posted by Cunamara
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