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The big concert is coming up, in a large hall. My ensemble has been practicing and sounds pretty good, and I'm scheduled to play a two-chorus solo. I've been improvising over the changes and I'm getting it, but...
I could sound a lot more assured if I write out a two-chorus solo and read it off, rather than improvising a solo on the fly. But then, will it be "jazz"?
I realize this is an open-ended question - I'd welcome any comments. Certainly if I had to play a jazz solo on national TV, in the big-time, I would write it out ahead of time and memorize it cold!
... ?
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05-01-2018 04:56 AM
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I would say that whether or not "it" is jazz is based more on the style of music the ensemble is playing, not on someone's solo. If it makes you more comfortable as a performer to compose a solo, then I say go for it. If doing so would make you feel lame or phony, then keep working on your improv chops and go for that instead.
Ultimately I'd be more concerned with sounding good, and if my skills weren't quite up to the task of freely improvising, I'd probably write out a solo too. Or at least a melodic framework of a solo, leaving some space for improvised phrases.
Good luck!
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If it's in the jazz style and it's a jazz tune, then yes. Beginning improvisers do this a lot. It's very common.
Even some old pros memorize and play their best solo for a tune after playing it for a long time. They know it's their best solo and can't say it any better.
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Well, jazz, by definition or by nature is the act of creating in real time. That's when you've gotten there. Heh heh, it's easy to say when you're there, right?
Originally Posted by Thoughtfree
But you're NOT there, and you're getting there. You're learning. So write out the solo. What you learn is a HUGE lesson. And it's the awareness and compositional things you learn, do that make a good improvised solo in the future, you simply get comfortable enough to do it all the time...on the fly.
Is it jazz? Well let's just say it's a big part of it.
Is it cool to do this? Sure. As long as you know this is part of a process and it's "not soup" until you know your ingredients and give it the time to cook. In the mean time, become familiar with your ingredients, use a cook book and don't burn yourself unnecessarily.
If you have the time, maybe write the solo based on a few things you write down, the start of a line, how you use space, a long note answered by a shorter phrase, variations of the original melody... and then leave yourself a space where you play (or write) something different each "variation" you create... and end on something you've written out in the same spirit. You'll learn a lot from this, most importantly that it's about options.
Jazz is a big picture. If you don't get it all at once, it shouldn't stop you and it doesn't mean you aren't a jazz musician.
Let us know how it goes!
David
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I remember a recent thread, where it was commented hos well rehearsed Wes was. That his solos live sounded a lot like the recorded version despite being played years later
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I'm just a beginner. Improvisation is way far down on my list of priorities at this time, but I'd like to share my thoughts on this very interesting question.
Do you think the listeners would rather hear a good, well constructed pre-written solo or a not-so-good improv? Will the listeners care if you improvised or wrote it out before hand? How would the listeners even know? Are you playing to just to try and impress other musicians or for the enjoyment of the listeners?
I guess you can look at a composed solo as improvising very slowly. Once you're comfortable playing your written solo you'll probably change things on the spot every time you play it. Is that improvising? I don't know, but how can anybody know if an improvised solo is being thought up totally on the spot or if the musician thought about (or even wrote) what he would do before hand?
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Here is the simple fact: Everybody out there has heard Kind of Blue and Blue Trane just like you have. They know what great jazz sounds like. Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
Here is the good news: They came to see you and they have stayed to see you. That's right, they know and they stayed by choice.
Honor that: Try your best. They can tell. There is endless time to work on practicing that tune, or that lick, or that solo by [insert name here]. The time to work on playing in the moment is NOW.
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I play in a big band, and there was a sax solo on a tune we were playing last night, there was a written out part or improv. The high school kid on tenor asked which he should do, the leader said, just improvise. Well, the kid can't play in time or over changes, it just sounds random....
Which is to say, it depends on what stage you're at with improvising. If you have problems getting lost or playing in time, working out part of it ahead of time isn't so bad. But the time you spend doing that, you could just be practicing playing over changes. Improvisation is the basis of jazz.
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Just map it out a bit, the positions, licks, the general guideline.. But if you just going to memorize the whole thing cold, imagine how much you going to sweat before playing it on stage, for me the pressure would be overwhelming. Because if you f.. up, what do you do? It will be too obvious, while when you improvising it's mostly only you know when or if you f..ed up.
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For this specific gig, if writing out your solo makes you more assured and therefore confident, I recommend you do so. Originally Posted by Thoughtfree
Transcribing one's own solo is a good way to understand where one is 'at' and improving one's technique. Transcribing a 'pros' solo is a good way to understand their approach to improvisation and learning tricks-of-the-trade.
BUT the end-goal in both cases is to increase one's ability so one can improvise on-the-fly. E.g. by the time you got to that T.V. gig, you would have enough ability and confidence to not need to play a transcribed solo.
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There’s no shame in playing a composed solo, and if it’s your own and good you should take pride in it.
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I say if it sings and swings, it's jazz. You improvised it ahead of time. Someday the time required to compose and play a solo will become much shorter, in fact, will happen on the spot. For now, though, working out something ahead of time is fine. Have fun! Make your own music! Delight your listeners! Please your band leader and bandmates! All that is more important than "is this on the spot or is this composed?" It will still be you, and you're on a course toward improvisation, so do your best and play what you want.
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Yeah that's good too, if one is ready. It's a middle way. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
You can map out the tough parts and improv in between where you can't get into too much trouble.
Regarding memorization of something difficult... That is a matter of one's level of musicianship - and - how well they practice and prepare for a stage performance. The demands for classical soloists go right off the charts, difficulty wise. So it's a matter of what one is prepared to tackle. "Reaching up" is more for the practice room than stage.
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No, but this is a big group of folks, sounding good is a hell of a lot more important than being altruistic.
Keep in mind, many a big band player back in the day was expected to play a familiar solo.
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Writing out and playing your solo is a type of jazz "composition;" I'm pretty sure composing and performing in the jazz style is still allowed, so go for it! Also, keep working on your improvisation skills, since that, too, is a part of jazz.
Have fun at the show!
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Mike Christiansen advocated writing out you're own solos as part of the process for learning to improvise. One step farther along the continuum between improvisation and transcribing maybe?
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' had the great privilege to study with (great vibes player) Dave Samuels in my time at Berklee. Each week he had us write a solo for the upcoming piece we'd do the next week. We'd hand them in but we didn't actually play those written out solos. But when we did solo in class, it was on a level I'd never played before. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
In the process, I recognize things that I went through with every solo: "What can I do?" "What are my options?" but instead of the pressure of doing something right now, I had the time to see ideas that had passed by unnoticed and build on them. I had time to call on pedal point. I had time to return to an idea from 6 bars before. I could see tendencies I had and break them with the unexpected. And when I soloed in real time, those guidelines, not the notes, stayed with me.
I grew a lot from that experience.
David
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Miles Davis is probably the worst example for playing in the moment. Jim Snidero was interviewed on WKCR a few months ago, and he said that he listened to all the alternate takes on Miles' solos from albums like Kind of Blue, and other Miles' LPs from that period, and Miles would play almost the exact same solos on most of the takes. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
Pepper Adams also said that he got fired from Miles' group, because Miles played the same solos every night at gigs, and Pepper started playing them down an octave when Miles took a solo. Miles got bugged at being busted like that, and fired Pepper!
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"If it sounds right, it is right." (Duke Ellington).
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I tried to discuss a few times here a similar problem but more conceptually...
We - people who study jazz practically - often discuss improvization from pov of tools and approach.
And we never think about what listeners hear as improvized or not improvized.
What do they feel and hear and the music that tells them 'it is improvized' and 'it is not improvized'.
I think it depends a lot on how much the audience is involved in jazz.. how and what they detec as spontaneousness.
As per writing out a solo and if it is jazz or not... it's only for you to decide. What is jazz for you?
For me jazz is about improvizing... I like that challenge.
I can understand the situation where you have to do that, and maybe i would do that too in that case but I would understand for sure that this is not I am doing it for.
So for me it would just a job I wanted to secure to be done well, but it is not what I am playing this music for.
So - for you to decide...
do not listen to anyone who comforts you with 'everybody does that' and all...
This is a kind of question that only you can answer.
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“. . . the quality of immediacy [is ] essential to jazz. That quality originates, not from the assumption that the notes have never been played before, but from a sense that they have come into being, in real time, as urgent creative impulses.” -- Thomas Conrad, April, 2004 JazzTimes Originally Posted by sgcim
Why are you quoting Jim Snidero? Listen to Miles' work and form your own conclusion. After you do, feel free to convince me that Miles' work generally, and on Kind of Blue in particular, was not 'an urgent creative impulse.'
Or don't. This is the internet, I'm just some figment.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
I remember a recent thread, where it was commented hos well rehearsed Wes was. That his solos live sounded a lot like the recorded version despite being played years later
Unfortunately, that's just not true. I heard Wes 6 nights in a row, and his solos on repeated tunes were always different.
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I've listened to Miles all my life, and he plays his solos beautifully, but that doesn't mean what he's playing is an 'urgent creative impulse' when he recorded them. They were probably urgent creative impulses when he first thought of them, and he's just using them on the record, because he knows they sound great. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
If you're so concerned about the subject, why don't you email Jim Snidero? Then ask him about all the tunes Mile ripped off from other people, like 'Four, Blue in Green, Donna Lee, Solar, etc...
Lee Konitz even said he heard Bird warming up when he played a concert with him, and Bird played the same lines he was practicing in his dressing room at the concert.
Konitz thinks that very few of the jazz players of today are really improvising.
Or read Gary Burton's recent autobiography, where he said that Pat Metheny would go back into the studio alone after the Burton Quartet had finished recording an album, and put 'little fixes' on all of his solos.
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Personally I don't care if you, anyone, or everyone played worked out solos or not, unless I happen to be listening to you! Then I'd hope you were wingin' it to a large extent, for my own enjoyment. I can take a flub or 2 if it shows you're really going for it. It's more exciting to watch a tightrope walker walk a rope in the air with no net, than it is to see someone walking along a tight rope on the ground, dontcha think?
But mainly I think I prefer to wing it because it's more fun, it's kinda lame to play a worked out solo, even if the audience might prefer it. I'm not spending thousands of hours learning the jazz craft to trick the audience (not paid enough). The only reward is the satisfaction in taking risks and (kinda) landing on your feet. If you're not getting that from Jazz you're either ripping yourself off, or you're getting paid a heck of a lot....
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...or at least different enough... Originally Posted by ronjazz
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