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I gave in.
I have Alan Kingstone's book for the chords, and Roni Ben-Hur's book "Talk Jazz" for the lines.
At the moment, I'm not sure or too concerned about practical applications - I'm just trying to memorise the first few pages of each.
Chords - I love the sound of the Drop 2 chord scales. Enjoying getting them under the fingers, and moving them around. Have transposed them to a couple of keys. Haven't yet started on the Drop 3.
Lines - just memorising the first four of the descending major scales with added half steps, and likewise for the Dom 7 scales. But they are not scales in the normal sense, that you would improvise within. They seem more like a lick, usually descending. But, as I said, I'm just getting them under the fingers first. I'm trying them in different octaves and positions, working out the fingerings. The ten-note scales are fun to play.
Once I'm more relaxed and comfortable with them, and further along in the books, I'll be looking to use what I'm learning in pieces.
Anyone else using these books? I've seen some older threads here, but wondered if people stayed the course.
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01-07-2018 11:35 AM
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Tried to find the Kingstone book but it wasn't available. Where did you get yours from?
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I bought it about a year ago, and promptly shelved it. I think I ordered it from Alan Kingstone's website - I can't really remember clearly.
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Hi Rob --- I've been learning this approach for many years now, studying with Howard Rees in Toronto (and with Barry when he comes to town). Alan's book is very useful, Ben-Hur's less so in my opinion. I really like the two video/workbook packages that Howard prepared with Barry --- "The Barry Harris Workshop Video" parts 1 and 2 (there is also a vocal workshop which I have not used). They are available from Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops -- the video portions now come on DVD. I keep coming back to them and find something new and useful every time. They are more structured distillations of Barry's workshop method, in which he leads a group of students through a series of exercises on key aspects of improvisation, the rhythm section, harmony etc.
There is a distinction to be drawn between the extra note rules for (regular) major, dominant and minor scales on the one hand, and on the other Barry's four 8-note scales built from major 6, minor 6, dominant 7 and dominant 7b5chords and their related diminished chords (Maj6dim, Min6dim, Dom7dim and Dom7b5dim). The former are more than just "licks" --- they provide material for various kinds of improvised lines --- but the latter (also used to shape lines) are the foundation of Barry's approach to harmony.
There are lots of snippets of Barry's teaching on the web. A good place to start might be the late Frans Elsen's video excerpts of Barry's classes at The Hague: Frans Elsen
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Originally Posted by TOMMO
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Originally Posted by pcjazz
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pcjazz - thanks. I'll mull over what you have said.
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I have the Alan Kingstone book and I’m still using it after a couple of years. I think the application is a ‘slow burn’, so don’t give up on it in a hurry.
I am doing a lot of solo jazz guitar these days and I find the BH chord (harmonic) system really useful in helping me develop chordal structures and fragments to build my improvising around (if that makes sense).
Also for comping it has helped me get more ideas and more fluid movement.
I haven’t tried the Roni Ben Hur book (which I believe is aimed at single-note lines rather than chords), but I might get it sometime.
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Cheers, gbop. If it's good enough for you, it's good enough for me. I can already see how the chord book will be good for comping - using the C6/dim movements for an Am7 in a 251 sequence. I like the idea of movement, rather than block chords.
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One thing I like about the harmonic system is that essentially you only need to learn the maj6 and min6 voicings (everyone knows their diminished chords already, right?) and these cover loads of applications. (You can learn the dom 7 and the Dom 7 b5 too but I must admit I don’t use those so much).
Before I got the book I was trying to harmonise lines all over the place using different scales of diatonic chords and it was turning into one big headache, I couldn’t get my head round it. With the BH approach it suddenly got a lot simpler.
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This is the kind of thing I’m talking about - most of this was harmonised using ideas from Alan’s book. I could not have done this before I got the book.
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Talk Jazz Guitar doesn't have very much in the way of application or progressive methodology etc. Might be a good SUPPLEMENT for guitarists who already have the DVD set, as those aren't guitar specific, but I mostly didn't use office fingerings anyway. . I don't have the DVD set yet, but that was the main reaction I had from looking his book: "I need to get the workshop DVD's".
I spent a few weeks with this stuff several months ago and would be curious to know anyone else's method for approaching the practice of these scales. Do you learn every iteration in one or two positions first, or FEWER iterations but in more positions? I think I was doing the former.
Anyway, quickly gets mindnumbing without the application components . I'd recommend getting the workshop DVDs, Which have handouts on this stuff. Examples of application to tunes as well .
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Now, that's just plain beautiful, one of the best advertisements for the method I've seen.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
It took me awhile to get what I think of as the BH stuff. I had Alan's book and Roni's book and DVD and things just weren't clicking for me, but I wanted to get what BH talks about so I persisted. I got the BH video which at first was okay, he can talk fast, but the important thing for me about the BH DVDs is you hear the material played over and over. You get the sound in your ears. So tired Roni and Alan's stuff again and made a bit more sense, but still no cigar.
My breakthrough came from checking out a piano tutorial, the teacher never mentioned BH but by then my ears recognized that is what he was playing and talking about. So even though I only know enough piano to be dangerous I wore out the pause button on my video software and I transcribed the chords the pianist was playing and studied what was going on to get the concept down. Then I created my own guitar version of the chords using the concept. Then I started using the concept working on tunes and comping it started becoming more natural. I could now listen to CDs of artists and recognize the sound being used.
After that I got into the Negative stuff long story short got the sound into my ear and realize BH and the Negative fit together and are parts of each other. Now going back and listening to BH's Youtubes I'm starting to hear little comments he makes that explain this stuff, that in the past just flew by and didn't pay much attention too.
Last from my other talks and studies with pro's I believe that improv is that it's all about chords, playing chords, implying chords, substituting chords, chords, chords, chords. Chords give you the notes for scales. Now the BH and Negative chordal stuff is explaining the scale stuff. What I'm working on now is trying to reduce this stuff down to triads and diads and some cases single note.
So that is the process, path, that I went thru. The codified, theorized materials didn't do much for me, first key element was really getting the sound in my ear and being able to start recognizing the sound and feel when I heard it being used by someone else. Once I had that was able to understand the concept make my own examples and not the reverse take someone else's examples. This is also explained why Dizzy, Bird, Monk, Miles and so no didn't explain things to others, they would play an example and leave it at that, you had to get the sound in your ear first because without that the theory don't mean a thing.
So can hear some of the comments already, but don't care that's what worked for me and I feel I learned a lot along the way. As they say it's the process that teaches, not the answer to a question.
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Good story, and I'm pleased it's finally working for you, docbop. But I've no idea what you mean by Negative...
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
That's a topic that I don't like to bring up because their are so many nay-sayers here and everywhere. Negative harmony goes way back depending on who you talk to some say to Bach, but in Jazz world Dizzy talked about it in his autobiography briefly. More recent Jacob Colliers has mentioned it sparking a whole new round of rants about it. But I read most of this and they all seem to miss a key aspect of it. I know I'm being vague I don't want to open a can of worms here, also like the BH stuff I had to learn it my way based on hearing more than the technical explanation. Below is link to where I started my Negative journey if you want to read more about it. I've got more of the linear use of Negative and still trying to get a grip on the harmonic use.
Symmetrical Movement Concept | Steve Coleman
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Okay. Back to BH.
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
It did take me quite a long time messing about continually with the BH stuff before I could come up with this sort of thing, like I said it’s not a quick process. I think a key thing was to start applying it to bits of actual tunes, harmonise some melodies, then it started to become clearer.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Exactly ears first, theory last, same as the people that created all the music.
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Originally Posted by docbop
Rob, I'm so glad you are having a look. Your comments on this site over the years have always been insightful and respectful. I hope you find value in the Harmonic Method book.
Please use rhythmic interpretation always.
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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You also have the option of studying this material online at jazzschoolonline.com. I found this through BH's website.
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Don't sleep on the drop 2 and 4s. Or as Pasquale calls them, "split" voicings: 1536; 3651, 5163. 6315.
They sound great.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I found Pasquale's four (4) online classes to be great as well. And Roni Ben Hurr's Chordability has a near tree hour video that breaks down the harmonic stuff very well.
One head, two cabs.
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