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Navdeep, that was nice. I can see your vision, so to speak. The mic sounds decent too, though the camera angle could be improved somewhat ;-)
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01-18-2018 03:16 AM
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PMB - thanks for that. I haven't had my porridge yet, but I think I can see what you're getting at. I'll try it out later. Cheers.
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Wes's chord solos make a lot of use of 6ths and dims (like most of the players of his generation), but they don't seem to be following BH's rules.
When this thread started I was working on Wes's intro to Days of Wine and Roses. Yes, there are some 6ths and dims, but not connecting the BH way, and definitely not sounding like any of the BH guitar examples I've heard.
I hope this doesn't sound negative, it's not intended to.
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I find that if there’s one chord per bar (not uncommon) then if you take it slowly, you can still get some movement into it. Of course at faster tempos you may be unable to do as much, but at least it gets you thinking about what movements are possible, that’s half the battle I think. Also I look at movement from one bar to the next. E.g. if it’s tonic in one bar and dominant in the next, then some BH moves could still be used to make those 2 bars sound good.
I listened to Wes’ DOWAR harmonisation and I’ve also got Steve Khan’s transcription which is handy. It’s true you won’t see a lot of consecutive strings of 6 and dim chords. But I think this is partly because the melody is dictating what he does, so those sequences may not fit in that way.
That Wes head is all basically tonic and dominant movements it seems to me, so similar to BH in that respect. But of course Wes adds loads of other harmonies so it doesn’t sound obvious.
Actually just looking at at the first 2 bars you could easily see the chords in BH terms. Fma7 = F6 with a borrowed note. Next chord is Cm6. Next chord is D9 = Am6. You could probably analyse quite a lot of it in the same way.
I doubt Wes was thinking that much about any ‘system’ anyway, he just had such great ears and grasp of all this stuff without following anybody’s rules (well that’s how it seems to me at least).
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Thanks for your thoughtful reply Graham.
True, yes one chord per bar does count as "static" I guess: frequently it's a I, and a simple way of getting some small movement is I to Imaj6 (depending on where you are in the tune, but usually at the end of a chorus its fine). This is a shortened version of Mickey Baker's movements (I think Rob has provided examples of all Mickey's lessons on one of his websites). The problem with running up the dim6 chord scale for a I at rest, is that we don't actually want movement when I is at rest!
I see Maj7 and Maj6 as the same chord, just as most people seem to see any altered dom chord as a dom.
I've also got Steve Kahn's book of Wes's transcriptions, some of the voices are wrong for that head. But yes I agree the first few bars of the head can be seen as tonic and dom.
I've tried to analyse the whole head in BH terms, but it just doesn't work consistently, though of course there are points at which it can be applied.
Wes, and the other players from that period, are using the same building blocks - let's say 6ths and doms - and naturally there is overlap with what BH is saying, it would be impossible for there not to be overlap - but it's generally not particularly consistent with what BH is saying in detail; at least I haven't found any real consistency.
I'm interested in your observation that the melody is dictating what Wes is doing. Well yes! :-)
This reminds me of something you said in a much earlier post on this thread, that the BH approach has helped you to reduce long strings of diatonic chords in your harmonisations (I hope I haven't misquoted you). Have you got specific examples - apologies if you've posted them already and I missed them.
I agree very much with Pat Martino and George Benson that Wes had a method. But no-one has ever deciphered it, or if they have, they're keeping it to themselves.
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I will put 6/dim movements into a bar of one chord, I’m ok with doing that. There are examples in that ‘What Is This Thing Called Love’ pdf that I posted earlier.
There’s a thread on the Gear Page (playing and technique) by Tag about George Benson's method, I don’t know if that might be similar to Wes. I haven’t really followed it closely but I think it’s to do with all chords being either tonic or dominant then you can just play with 2 basic approaches (that’s probably a very bad summary!)
Re. The diatonic chords I think I was recalling this practical standards tune (Poinciana) where I did a chord solo at about 4:45. I found it very difficult to do on the fly so in the end I sort of worked it out in advance. If I’d known the BH scales I think it would have made it a lot easier.
Last edited by grahambop; 01-20-2018 at 03:40 PM.
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There was a PDF on the internet called Wes Montgomery Harmonization Techniques by Shawn Purcell but I can’t seem to find it very easily now (links broken etc.) You might be able to find it somewhere.
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Yeah I think you could do the Wes thing and never have anything to do with Barry.
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The dim6 chord scale has such a distinct sound, it’s instantly recognisable. And I don’t remember hearing it in the other great chord solo players either, let’s say Barney Kessel and Joe Pass.
Yet if you were to take a dim-6th pair from that scale, you’d probably find it all over the place from players of that period.
Since working (sporadically) with Alan K’s book I’ve found quite a few examples of dim-6th pairs in my own playing, but they just appears as fragments (as they do in Alan K’s recording of Like Someone in Love which is included with his book), and I thought about them in different ways from AK’s. Yet I have a feeling there is a huge closet army of students running up and down that scale all over the world!
I’m just trying to add a bit of context. Those of us who’ve been playing a while, and that includes most of us, will be familiar with some of the concepts that BH and Alan present, but we may think about them in different ways.
Here’s an example from Juilliard dating from the late 50s I think “On all m6 symbols, build a half-diminished chord a minor third below”. The mirror of BH :-)
Most of BH’s reharm ideas are not new (imho), but they are bundled up in a comprehensive and systematic way, which is new.
What is new about BH is the dim6 chord scale (AFAIK). The way the scale integrates a lot of the strands of Jazz harmony from that period is fascinating, but it’s not a sound that I recognise from the guitarists of that period.
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Any use of scales should be fragmentary in the actual music I think (otherwise it sounds like scales!)
I don’t know if anyone thought of it in the ‘scale’ terms before Barry codified it in that way. As you say, people have been using the dim chord as a passing chord for ages (e.g. Chopin!) so the basic concept is not new.
Even if I’m just moving from one voicing to another, I might find it useful to consider it in BH terms and look for a nice transition. So you won’t hear much of the scale, but the thought process is still there.
Anyway I shall probably post my ‘stardust’ chords etc. today, it’s almost done. I think I used the ‘scale’ a bit, certainly at the beginning.
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Here's the chords I used for Stardust, with some explanatory notes.
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Graham, you are a star. Stardust indeed!
I'll place your video here again, so people can hear the pdf come alive..
I'll be studying your arrangement later. Still just in memory and playing around with mode.
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Haha thanks Rob. I don’t get called that very often!
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Alan Kingstone’s book pages 80-85, together with his great version of Like Someone in Love is one of the best and most intelligently organised pieces of instructional material I’ve seen. And it’s exactly what I’m looking for at this stage in my personal guitar odyssey.
Alan, any chances of a Volume 2 based on this approach? Crowdfunding? Or issued one standard at a time?
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Originally Posted by sunnysideup
Sunnysideup: I'm so glad you have found value in my interpretation of Barry's lifetime of work. I was very careful to present the material in our book in a logical, methodical way and your words convey that we succeeded! I feel extremely fortunate to have studied with Barry and Howard Rees, learning this very compact, succinct though vast harmonic system. I've taken a hiatus from study and playing for a few years and don't miss it. Music consumed me for decades. Howard often says "when is volume 2 coming out"? Frankly, I can't see it. It's a great idea but I think you folks have to run with it, make beautiful musical movements, that's our goal and pass it along.
For those who want to work on TWO/FIVE/ONE right away, go to page 45, the last page of Sisters & Brothers.
Also: You don't have to play a bunch of Major 6th Dim or Minor 6 Dim in a row; sometimes just a couple. Start on the diminished and rhythmically move to a related 6th or Minor 6th.
Listen to Barry! He is never wrong in his playing. Listen to the 'little things' he does. Subtle rhythmic pushes. Don't ever think this method is for static harmony only.
Think 'Sixth / Sixth / Sixth'.
All the best.
Alan
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Here is a Barry Harris chord from a chart of the verses to Autumn Leaves I got over at another thread.
That chord is Amin7b5 /D and is right out of the Harris C min6 scale with the borrowed D ( Amin7b5=read Cmin6 with 6 in bass).
To get that D in the bass you have to mask the third which results in a D7sus..unless I'm missing something.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
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Or x57888 or 10 10 10 8 10 x -- or other inversions which are harder to reach.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Dang, you're probably the worlds best amateur guitar player, Graham. Straight out of UK - where may I ask? You should play some gigs! (Or perhaps that would ruin the title? )
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Originally Posted by yaclaus
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by plasticpigeon
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Originally Posted by plasticpigeon
And yeah, he's got quite the following I take it - including Herbie Hancock & Quincy Jones.
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Jacob’s teh new Motsart. Whos that old guy?
Charlie Garnett - Franken Tele
Yesterday, 08:52 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos