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I had contacted some local universities to inquire about doing a sheets of sound clinic. I was surprised to find that many of the local universities have almost no guitar majors. One had zero, the other had 2.
Really disappointing...
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10-02-2017 03:57 PM
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The guitarists are realizing they can't afford to spend the costs of tuition learning something that is a very expensive luxury.
Maybe these kids are getting smarter after all. Or maybe their parents don't want their kids to hate them in a decade when that guitar major is nothing more than a monthly loan payment to the bank.
Putting guitar in institutions of higher learning may mean guitar hit the big time, but facing reality that you don't need it doesn't necessarily mean the demise of guitar.
But maybe you're right, Jack. I'll play my guitar while Rome burns.
David
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I think what it says is that there is little to no demand for jazz guitar (at least in cleveland). I'm sure it's different (likely better) in other big cities but I'm very curious. I heard recently that peabody conservatory in baltimore laid off almost the entire jazz faculty recently.
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Usually, around here, a “guitar major” means, most of the time, classical guitar major.
It’s generally a new phenomenon. I remember my teacher saying that he actually was the first one that started getting the guitar accredited at a local university here —DePaul. He wrote the entire curriculum and got the program certified. Before that, absolutely no university around here had any guitar majors. Because no such program existed. Then he started the same program, through one of his students, at a second school: Roosevelt University.
He said he wound up quitting the University because they didn’t treat the guitar students with the same level of respect as the other instrument majors.
Around here, probably the most prestigious musical school that offers a guitar major is Northwestern. The woman who heads the guitar department there was a student of Oscar Ghiglia’s. She always has Oscar come over here and give a master class and a recital over year.
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Even in Boston, the jazz mecca, there's a lot of draw but that's supported by very specific teachers that students will entrust their time to. I hear a lot of kids who say "I came here because that's where Julian Lage ( or some other name) can teach me how to play THAT way. And other teachers will supplement that pursuit. That's why people head to New York, to take classes where Sco teaches, or where they can find lesson time with Ben Monder or Lage Lund.
So who is there in Cleveland that makes a guitarist say "I've GOT to learn that from him!"?
Is there a good club scene there where young kids can get a start in that culture through jams when they're young? That's where the taste of what it's about comes from. Even in a town like Philly, kids are talented, but they've got to have a place to channel that talent into some potential they can realize early on. And then, they want to go to Boston or New York. And to be honest, it's as much or more to meet the other young talented youth that's going to be making their mark when they graduate.
Kids show up at Berklee auditions with awesome talent (some do anyway) and it's because they got their start jamming with good people in high school and because they have access to YouTube and are ready to learn to network.
What you can learn in a classroom is only a fraction of what you need. Big fish in a small pond is a dangerous proposition when your goal is to get caught by someone who's fishing.
David
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I have no idea what goes on at colleges. My favorite students are beginners---of all ages, including a 5-year-old who started last week. Beginners haven't been corrupted, misinformed or ruined yet.
But in this area anyway (Montgomery County, NW Pennsylvania) guitar is still very popular as an instrument to learn. If they start at 5 or even 15 by the time they DO get to college they'll probably be ready...
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i agree with everything you wrote. One thing I'll point out is that back around 1979, there were something like 1000 guitar majors at berklee in the freshman class. Apparently out of that, only 5-10% actually graduated. The sad truth is that despite the attrition, you need numbers to keep a school going. The kids who didn't play that well and who had no chance of graduating were actually funding the schools. Now you have a situation where the schools are finding it harder to stay solvent because not as many kids are interested.
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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None of the people I admire the most studied got degrees in “jazz guitar”. The jazz guitar majors with degrees that I’ve met have mostly seemed to look at jazz as a non-evolving form of music. I think there is a lot of that and I think it’s been a great detriment to the form. I’m not saying it has to be that way, but it seems that it often is.
I have taken college level jazz guitar courses, but I just see them as a starting point. I get more out of studying a chart and melody on my own and interpreting it that way than I ever have out of a formal course of study.
I suppose to each his own though. Sorry if this comes off as a rant.
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The college where I live has an annual all day Jazz clinic. I went last year hoping to meet to people to possibly get together and play tunes with. They were breaking people up into groups by instrument no guitar clinic. I ask why they said they had them in the past but no one shows up so they dropped it. I saw one young kid with a guitar walking around with he dad and that was it. Originally Posted by jzucker
The college does have a Jazz big band, but most the students sign up to play in one of the four Pop/Rock performace classes and that where the guitarists all are.
It would be interesting to see a graph of the percentage of guitar students in schools like Berklee, MI, and other colleges from the 1970's to 2017. Also the number of Jazz guitar students from 1970's to now.
Well, Jazz guitar can't make a comeback if it doesn't go away?
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That's very interesting and seems true.
I had a false start in college straight from high school. I intended on being a writer, especially poetry. My English composition teacher liked my writing and recommended I drop out. He pointed out the best way to be a writer is to write all of the time, not waste time in college. I did take his advice. I found out I'm not cut out to be a great writer.
Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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i know it's subjective but I disagree whole heartedly with thatrhythmman.
Some of my favorite players are college educated though not all of them graduated:
- Paul Bollenback (university of miami)
- Dan Wilson (masters in music)
- Adam Rogers (berklee)
- Peter Mazza (masters in music)
- Peter Bernstein (new school)
- Randy Johnston (university of miami)
- Jesse Van Ruller (Hilversum Conservatory)
Sure the old timers like Martino, Benson and company didn't go to conservatory but times have changed. Back when they came up, you could be on the road playing jazz 5 nights a week. Not so anymore other than NY
Saying that good players didn't go to college is about like saying it hurts your playing to learn to read music.
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I said it before and I'll say it again:
YOU CAN MAJOR IN JAZZ GUITAR AND GET A DEGREE??!!!
I would never have guessed in a million years when I was in college.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Northwestern has an excellent jazz department here, headed by one of Wynton Marsalis’ former band members. I forgot the name.
As for a guitar players, there’s a really excellent musician named Mike Alemana and then another guy named Neal Alger Who graduated from Northern Illinois University. The guy who heads the Jazz department there is Fareed Haque.
Fareed actually been there forever. it’s provided a stable gig for him.
Shit find me a better all around guitar player than Fareed— I bet no one can. In terms of playing jazz, straightahead, avant-garde, funk, rock, Indian classical music, European classical music, Latin and bossa nova and sam a and Brazilian . The guy is amazing.
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agreed nav...I mean, bollenback, wilson and johnston are as soulful as they come. They've played with guys like Joey Defrancesco, Donald Byrd, Lou Donaldson, Herbie Hancock, Randy and Mike Brecker, etc. How horrible!
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
Schools are a business I worked at one of the IMO best Jazz school for years and in my computer life was a programmer at UCLA you find out real fast how it all about how can we get paying students. When Jazz schools started making good money the universities didn't want to be left out and started "studio musician" and later "Jazz studies" programs. Look at the evolution of the curriculum at Berklee and MI and how they started as hardcore performance schools and now teach any and everything related to music. They went from schools that were hard to get accepted to, to now if you can pay you can go. Berklee is still a good school but not what it used to be. MI where I attended and became friends with many instructors is nothing like the early days and not sure I'd recommend it anymore. Educations is about filling seats more than turning out prepared people these days. The students are part of the problem too, because most all they want is the piece of paper.
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I never said they can’t be good players, but I think that formal education CAN lead to rigidity. The rigid view is what stifles creativity and disconnects one from the humanity of expression that’s possible with music. Please save the straw man arguments for elsewhere.
This isn’t unique to jazz. My original background is in metal music. It happens in that world all the time too even without college metal guitar majors. There are players with incredible technical ability, but are not able to speak to me at all.
This isn’t an attack on anyone in particular. It’s just that most technically amazing jazz (and metal) players are
only interesting for a few minutes at best to my ears.Last edited by ThatRhythmMan; 10-02-2017 at 10:59 PM.
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Well, not exactly. You are earning: Originally Posted by rlrhett
- a bachelors in music,
- as a performance major,
- with a principal instrument of guitar
- and it's jazz as opposed to classical
Point 4 is a few decades old. Point 3 a bit older. Points 1/2 have been around.
UNT, Berklee, University of Miami, USC led the way and others followed. Plus, time marched on, classical music got older and older, and pop music captured the musical imagination of millions worldwide in the 1960s.
Universities have to adapt. Hell, they're supposed to lead, although some will tell you that they're always 5 years behind the market... The current trend? Jazz degrees are becoming old hat and now it's "contemporary music". That's a fuzzy target IMO.
Is it Monday or what?
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Disagree. None of the guys I mentioned sound the least bit stifled. If someone is stifled, it ain't the school's fault. It's their fault.
Anyway, let's agree to disagree and move on.
Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Agreed. Cheers!
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I believe Victor Goines is still a member of the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra. You can catch him regularly at Winter's Jazz Club. Fareed skipped the jazz festivals this year including Hyde Park. I was bummed. Sorry for the highjack. My PM was acting out. Originally Posted by NSJ
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Interesting, Jack. I wonder why?
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Also, good. Fewer guitarists is alright by me ;-)
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Most/all of the players I know who came out of the college environment prioritise musicality over technique. They kind of have to. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
If anything the real shredders I know in jazz circles are those that didn’t do a degree in jazz.
Btw playing fast is not technique. It is a consequence of technique, but it’s possibly to be technically brilliant in other ways. I think rock guitarists have a bit of limited view of what technique is and what it’s for. Good technique can be completely transparent because it facilitates the music.
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I don’t really have any arguments with what you’ve said here, but I still believe that at least some college programs in jazz have led to a codification of what is and what isn’t “correct” in jazz. I find that antithetical to the spirit of jazz. Originally Posted by christianm77
Jazz in spirit isn’t classical music, but it now suffers from many of the same ills that classical music does in regards to performance. That’s not to say that there aren’t amazing performers that break free of the restraints to which others fall prey. I was fortunate enough to see Garrick Ohlsson perform this summer for the first time and he did amazing interpretations of the pieces he performed. If you haven’t seen former child prodigy on both the violin and piano Conrad Tao, look at what he’s doing currently with classical piano. It’s nothing short of astonishing.
The bottom line for me is that innovation in popular music often comes from the bottom up, rarely from the academics. I don’t believe college programs are the place to look when deciding if the guitar is a dying instrument. A decline in popularity is inevitable, but that’s normal. There used to be a piano in most houses in the US and Europe. That’s not the case anymore, but the piano isn’t dead.
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The guy i spoke to who was a guitar instructor at both schools said that it's because of "lack of recruiting". Also, many of the jazz clubs have closed starting around 2008 when the recession hit. Originally Posted by christianm77
In general the live music scene has pretty much dried up here other than some blues and hardcore clubs. And the kids are going to the rave/party scene clubs with DJ's. Unfortunately, we are training kids not to value live music.
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