Is Jazz from 1920s - 70 the 'best' and if so why

[Nate Miller]

if I ever am so screwed up that I need a sociologist to straiten me out, I want one of you boys to just shoot me right there and put me out of my misery.

No, I think that academic jazz in one breath preserved jazz and killed jazz. Everybody sounds the same today. That's what everybody learning the same thing does.

If you were to talk about cultural significance, jazz is culturally significant to America. Jazz, the jazz I play, is the music that was the soundtrack to our collective experience through the greatest challenges our country ever faced. During the "Golden Age" of jazz we as a nation came from the Great Depression of the 30s, through the most total war our society ever fought, and then into the best times we ever had in the post war America of the 1950s

the tunes themselves are our heritage here in the States. Jazz is our music. Especially jazz of the Golden Age



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[lawson-stone]

[QUOTE=goldenwave77;648504]

You'd need a sociologist to explain the effects jazz academia has had on jazz? Sounds self-perpetuating to me.[/QUOTE]

Don't count on this happening. Academe is notorious for being a lagging indicator. By the time something gets noticed/widespread in the larger culture, and is deemed worthy of academic attention, there is a decent chance it has entered its downward trajectory. (I'm talking more value-laden disciplines, not hard science or mathematics, or technology.)

For example in 1933, I think it was, the Oxford Student Union, a famed college debating forum, debated a topic which was something like "Resolved: There is no cause worth dying for King and Country." A few years later, Mr. Hitler and the Nazis reminded the world of the foolishness of this point of view, and that perhaps the lessons of WW I, were not the final word on these matters.

Group-identity politics and "cultural criticism" in the academy, has perhaps run its course as the 1960's generation heads toward its final curtain. This has been responsible for mountains of tendentious pseudo-academic claptrap that people will look back at, in wonderment, if they bother to even re-read this stuff in 50 years.

Sometimes true, sometimes not.

I can remember sitting in very "advanced" seminars at Yale 30+ years ago exploring the very arcane social views of French post-modernists like Derrida and Foucault and thinking "Thank God the average person has never heard of this an never will."

But the fact is, the basic worldview of post-modernist thought articulated by those pointy-headed academics is now the street-level worldview of 75% of people walking around, and maybe 90% of the media and entertainment industry, and they still never heard of Derrida and Foucault.

The weirdest, most far-out ideas in the academy today are often the ideological slogans of tomorrow. Never under-estimate the power of professors over the young in their classes, and the power of the media to brainwash us all.

[Nate Miller]

Never under-estimate the power of professors over the young in their classes, and the power of the media to brainwash us all.

after all those campus protests and watching kids jockey cash registers these days, its pretty clear that our tax money is funding anti-American re-indoctrination camps rather than funding education

[Philco]

But, but, but.... The first time I heard HMBB I thought I was hearing guitars! I mean if you love the sound of distorted horns, then distorted guitars aren't far off...

At any rate, Brecker admits he was heavily influenced by distorted guitar, and it's patently obvious. If anything, I find distorted horns to be more inauthentic that distorted guitars. To be clear, I also hate hearing "rockisms" in electric jazz guitar, but surely you can distort, wiggle, bend and wail- without sounding like rock. Not that I've heard it yet ....

Oh I absolutely agree about hearing guitars when I heard that album. But I haven't heard anyone....no matter how great a player.....make a guitar sound THAT BIG in a live fusion situation.

Breckers sax sounds as big and wide and fat as a storm front.

Did you ever play that game as a kid ......the one where you get 2 cans and stretch a piece of string between them and yell down "the line"?

That's what the guitar sounds like.

It's not the distortion I dislike, it's what's delivering it and in what context.

[princeplanet]

Oh I absolutely agree about hearing guitars when I heard that album. But I haven't heard anyone....no matter how great a player.....make a guitar sound THAT BIG in a live fusion situation.

Breckers sax sounds as big and wide and fat as a storm front.

Did you ever play that game as a kid ......the one where you get 2 cans and stretch a piece of string between them and yell down "the line"?

That's what the guitar sounds like.

It's not the distortion I dislike, it's what's delivering it and in what context.

Yeah, Brecker's lines (as well as his sound - distorted or otherwise) are to die for. As a guitarist, who do you think has come closest to that kinda playing?

[Jazzism]

How about the mighty AH? he even played with randy breaker before

[Philco]

How about the mighty AH? he even played with randy breaker before

Love me some AH but only in small doses.....and mainly the chord sound and his writing.
I totally respect what he's doing and he's one of a small group who have invented their own style of music.....John McLaughlin with Mahavishnu, Allan Holdsworth......err......um.....well that's about it.

It's the legato thing. Once again only my taste....I find it to passive. Too smooth and polite. No attack....one of the guitars great and expressive qualities. I know guitar players do it to sound more horn like (AH) but it doesn't sound anything like a horn to me.

[snoskier63]

Long thread, no time to read it all now.

Cultural significance for others or for you? The best jazz is that which speaks and appeals to you, regardless of what it did or does for others. I happen to love Count Basis, Oscar Peterson, Barney Kessel, and others of the like. To me they are the most culturally significant because they got me not only listening, but playing jazz. What was significant, or what turns others on is irrelevant to me.

Deep answer, I know, and not what you were looking for, but that's how I see it.

[christianm77]

Long thread, no time to read it all now.

Cultural significance for others or for you? The best jazz is that which speaks and appeals to you, regardless of what it did or does for others. I happen to love Count Basis, Oscar Peterson, Barney Kessel, and others of the like. To me they are the most culturally significant because they got me not only listening, but playing jazz. What was significant, or what turns others on is irrelevant to me.

Deep answer, I know, and not what you were looking for, but that's how I see it.

Well where's the fun in being so reasonable and sensible?

[Nate Miller]

That McLaughlin track is awesome. Don't normally like his playing.

that's your own countryman!

I about wore the grooves off that very albumn in high school. His stuff with Shakti was a real favorite with all my friends back then, too

but his acoustic record "My Goals Beyond" the one side of it that had "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" was my favorite side of vinyl from my youth

[christianm77]

that's your own countryman!

I about wore the grooves off that very albumn in high school. His stuff with Shakti was a real favorite with all my friends back then, too

but his acoustic record "My Goals Beyond" the one side of it that had "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" was my favorite side of vinyl from my youth

Certainly not, he's from Yorkshire. Different planet :-)

Actually Yorkshire has a pretty good track record of breeding fusion badasses. Bizarrely.

And rhubarb. What's the connection? We should be told.

Actually I like Johnny Macs early stuff and Shakti's pretty cool... He's really letting rip here.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

I can't think of a player. The player would have to have a streak of wildness as well as the "knowledge". The player would have to be someone who has developed a sound.....outside the standard or traditional stuff that's been tried.The sound has to convey emotion...like the Brecker sound does for me. Slightly out of control....so you don't know what's coming.
And they have to have serious chops.

bireli?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdGmMPWqh4M

[Philco]

bireli?

You're right, Bireli is the obvious candidate. He has the chops, the language and is a musical risk taker.
That he is rooted in the tradition is a blessing and a curse for this fantasy concept of mine.
The downside is that he hasn't spent his life creating his own style of music like J Mac and AH.

He's probably too comfortable doing what he is doing. Playing the circuit.

One must have the raging fire in the belly to fuel the creative spirit and gather the forces around.

Oh....and youth would come in handy....... but not mandatory.

[goldenwave77]

I nominate Jack Z. He's probably a lot closer to what you're looking for than these other guys in outlook and ability.

[PMB]

I'm with my fellow Aussies, Philco and princeplanet here. I dig Holdsworth's musical mind but his sound is too compressed for me. Nothing like a horn really, more like a keyboard synth (or maybe Brecker playing an EWI and imitating a guitar or keyboard synth). I like to hear the inner life of the string with all its natural grain and dynamics. I'd argue that Billy Bean and Jesse Van Ruller have a more horn-like profile to their lines.

Beck, on the other hand, is a sonic genius. No one comes close to the palette of tones he gets from his fingers alone. Even when he employs pedals, they're used to enhance rather than obliterate. His recent stuff can at times be a little too testosterone-driven (perhaps to make up for the lack of a singer out front) but I'd also love to hear a player that could combine his touch and anarchic spirit with Brecker's language (Jeff Brecker?). Check out the solo from Diamond Dust (Blow by Blow) at 3'30"-4'30" and marvel at Beck's mastery of articulation on a Les Paul:

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[MarkRhodes]

Beck, on the other hand, is a sonic genius. No one comes close to the palette of tones he gets from his fingers alone. Even when he employs pedals, they're used to enhance rather than obliterate. His recent stuff can at times be a little too testosterone-driven (perhaps to make up for the lack of a singer out front) but I'd also love to hear a player that could combine his touch and anarchic spirit with Brecker's language (Jeff Brecker?). Check out the solo from Diamond Dust (Blow by Blow) at 3'30"-4'30" and marvel at Beck's mastery of articulation on a Les Paul:

Beck is amazing. "Thanks for the memory." ;o)

[Lazz]

Sorry for the delayed reply, Christian.

OK then, I'll take the plunge. What's a good point of entry to the Bates universe?

I am probably not the best qualified to answer. My intense exposure and deep familiarity with his work happened in the ‘80s. Best thing I can offer, I think, in terms of hipping you to his unique brilliance and vision as composer and orchestrator, is to assemble a compilation and send you a download link. OK?

Would that work for you?

EDIT: Also I feel I should mention that several of the names you mentioned I don't recognise. So, these figures, however important they might be, are not mainstream figures to me in whatever strange neck of the woods I have ended up in. So perhaps they are unsung giants? That's a bit different...

I followed the “known to be very important at the time, not decades later, because they influenced their contemporaries right away” definition of yours. Well, I tried to. How would we define your “unsung giants” category any differently?

My mum and dad never heard of Bird (‘though they recognised Louis) and people in my local supermarkets are unfamiliar with Wes or Jim Hall or Lenny Breau or Baden Powell. Yet none of us would think of those guys as “unsung giants”. Would we? Everybody has to be unsung to someone. The names I offered – even though some may be new to you – are among established names on the international festival circuit and recognized as significant by other established names you would recognize. And still absolutely none of them are what we could justifiably identify as “mainstream” culture, are they?

I imagine Paolo Fresu is one of the names you didn’t recognize.
I think he’s right up your alley, nonetheless.

Rita Marcotulli might also be new to you, I guess – but players you have heard of recognise her standing and are very happy to work with her.

She is a very cool composer, mixing varied cultural influences.
For me, this recording offers the perfect example.

It might be significant that my engagement with music education has been limited - I'm primarily self taught - but I am a professional musician and most musicians I work with have jazz degrees etc

The one singular big plus I imagine with jazz programmes anywhere is that young ‘uns get a few years free during which they can play every day all day with similarly obsessed loonies. Everyone I know spent a couple of years playing ten hours a day anyway - and few of those guys went to a school to do it. Think of all those in our shared pantheon from those first 50 years from the ‘20s to the ‘70s that we love so much. Each one of them was – primarily, like you – a self-taught ear-player.

Although TBH a lot of the young players I hang out with couldn't give a toss about UK jazz - they are all about the 1920s-70s stuff and swing above everything else, so that's probably skewed my own perceptions. That said, I don't actually share that viewpoint. Also I daresay that's a reaction against their teachers, many of whom were probably in the Loose Tubes anyway :-)

BTW - I do think jazz education changes things quite a bit, because it becomes possible for teachers to develop a sphere of influence.

Boy – you know some weird people. I always thought we transcended petty national boundary bullshit forty years past. And while I have been loving every moment of my personal discoveries in music of the past, and being informed by it, somehow I can’t imagine trying to recreate it. Can’t quite comprehend it as a reaction against teachers, either. Doesn’t add up, to me. And I seriously doubt any of their teachers are ex-Tubes.

(Am I right to presume that Joe Zawinul, Julian Arguelles and Hermeto Pascoal are names you do recognize?)

[christianm77]

I think the point I was trying to make was that I hadn't heard of those guys. Now, while I would be the first to say I am not the most informed on every aspect of jazz, I am as a (nominal) working jazz musician, perhaps more knowledgeable about jazz then perhaps a random passer by. It's a bigger tent now - more stuff going on.

I used to get worried that I hadn't checked everything out. Now I realise that everyone has their own area of knowledge. I think as long as ones ignorance isn't wilful, or covered up, it's fair enough.

I am probably not the best qualified to answer. My intense exposure and deep familiarity with his work happened in the ‘80s. Best thing I can offer, I think, in terms of hipping you to his unique brilliance and vision as composer and orchestrator, is to assemble a compilation and send you a download link. OK?

Would that work for you?

That would be great, thank you for offering to take the time. :-) Looking forward to checking out some new stuff!

The one singular big plus I imagine with jazz programmes anywhere is that young ‘uns get a few years free during which they can play every day all day with similarly obsessed loonies. Everyone I know spent a couple of years playing ten hours a day anyway - and few of those guys went to a school to do it. Think of all those in our shared pantheon from those first 50 years from the ‘20s to the ‘70s that we love so much. Each one of them was – primarily, like you – a self-taught ear-player.

Oh sure, TBH I think everyone who is playing jazz is kind of self taught, whether they went to college or not...

BTW just because someone is self-taught does not in fact mean they play by ear - I was a heavy theory based player for years! I feel my ears have needed a lot of work TBH. Now students go to college and it's like they have to be told to transcribe.

I actually think it's really easy to drown in information now.

Boy – you know some weird people. I always thought we transcended petty national boundary bullshit forty years past. And while I have been loving every moment of my personal discoveries in music of the past, and being informed by it, somehow I can’t imagine trying to recreate it. Can’t quite comprehend it as a reaction against teachers, either. Doesn’t add up, to me. And I seriously doubt any of their teachers are ex-Tubes.

I play mostly swing, gypsy jazz, straight-ahead and a bit of bop for a living. Old forms. (My own project is much more eclectic, lots of non jazz influences. Very European IMO.)

I don't really feel like the musicians I play gigs with are terribly invested in the UK jazz legacy - if they were I probably would have checked the Tubes/Bates etc. out... Few have any interest at all in European jazz, some have been kind of turned off it at college. Perhaps a case of that musical world being taken for granted?

Many of the guys I know are keen to reconnect with the (US) tradition. Wynton very popular!

There are obviously loads of younger people out there doing really modern stuff who are probably really into the Tubes etc, but I don't tend to play with them very much.

Re: the Tubes - I've actually played with a few of them, been in workshops with them, heard loads of them play in other contexts, and a lot of them are in jazz colleges even taking instrumental students. Obviously a few of them are heading up institutions here and abroad. The alumni of that group, are I would say, definitely the backbone, I would say of UK jazz. Some are even doing instrumental tuition.

Julian Arguelles, I remember hearing him play at my local jazz club about a million years ago - he was a regular fixture when I was just getting into jazz. I remember enjoying his music. I can't say I've listened to him recently. If he is as great as you say I owe it to myself to take another listen.

[christianm77]

Oh the other thing, I think, is that a lot of young players seem to be more interested in the New York contemporary scene. So I get a very good idea of who's hot in the States, and the young musicians doing stuff in London, but I hear very little about the last generation of UK players.

Which is sad, I guess...