Is Jazz from 1920s - 70 the 'best' and if so why

[Stevebol]

If someone were searching for post 70's source material ie. songs to create a new standard jazz repetoire of harmonically rich, melodic tunes, I would look to Prince, Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Jon Brion, D'Angelo to name a few. I'm just saying there's a lot of great songs that have been written since Tin Pan Alley, and chances are a civilian audience would delight to hear genius improvisations on a theme they already know by any artists as opposed to one more attempt at Stella.

eddy b, I agree with you. Bare in mind my perspective is dance music + ballads.

[mr. beaumont]

there's a good deal of this sort of thing that goes on - you're absolutely right

but i'm addicted to the feel of intense swing and if it doesn't give me some version of that - usually because of a rock-based approach to the time (even the first of your clips employs that) - then i lose interest very quickly.

the joey d. clip is a different beast of course - its 'direct' or straightforward - but the time feel is not my thing at all, i want to say - because its not a jazz time feel. (for me e.g. the a typical bill evans ballad swings much more)

I hear ya..I guess I define swing a lot broader.

Actually, I'm not sure swing matters too much to me. I hear Tony Williams play straight 8ths and I don't think that music lacks anything. I like that different rhythmic feels have become commonplace in jazz.

[Nate Miller]

Actually, I'm not sure swing matters too much to me.

Blasphemy!

[princeplanet]

I was hoping this thread wouldn't descend into a debate about which era of Jazz is better or more worthy etc. What interests me is, if we accept '20 to '70 as being a "Classic" period in Jazz, what makes it "Classic"? And surely the answer helps us understand what makes any special era, in anything, "Classic". Surely the zeitgeist, or gestalt of the times focus a lot of energy on some "new thing" that excites everyone and attracts the best people to it, outdoing each other and over achieving, creating impossible new benchmarks.

In a recent Jackie McLean interview I read how the competition in Harlem was ferocious, where everyone was trying to get on the scene, Rollins came from the same neighbourhood and forced some great players to just quit because they couldn't compete. People reacted very quickly, when Rollins heard Bird on Tenor, he went away to Chicago for 9 months and had completely reinvented his sound, Jackie had just been playing for 4 years before he was playing tunes he wrote with Miles.

In incredible times when the flood gates are first opened, there's a mad rush and only the truly extraordinary people rise to the top, claim their patch so to speak. They're bouncing off the mood of the times, the combined energy of entire populations create these movements. This intense pressure creates diamonds, lots of them. After 1970, there was little wind in the sails for Jazz. Other vistas were opening up and people were rushing there instead.

It is what it is, '20 to '70 was the Golden half century for Jazz. The period since has been great too, but we can't pretend we still live in an ongoing Classic Jazz era. Let's be glad it happened at all, and make the most of it's aftermath, the ripples from it's wake are still being felt, and long may they be...

[Groyniad]

well tony williams - i hear him play anything and i'm gripped

i went to a md re-union gig in glasgow just after he died - the whole crew (rc;ws;tw;hh)

tw was too loud - no question. after the third number someone actually shouted out from the big audience 'the drums are too loud'.

they adjusted the balance

but the band sounded worse to me - because the drums were just made in heaven

but that' was hard swing time

[princeplanet]

well tony williams - i hear him play anything and i'm gripped

i went to a md re-union gig in glasgow just after he died - the whole crew (rc;ws;tw;hh)

tw was too loud - no question. after the third number someone actually shouted out from the big audience 'the drums are too loud'.

they adjusted the balance

but the band sounded worse to me - because the drums were just made in heaven

but that' was hard swing time

Williams was incredible, but had as much to do with the changing direction of Jazz in the 60's as Trane (for better or for worse). Drummers became loud and busy...

[christianm77]

Why are we always lamenting that things aren't happening when they're happening, right now?

As I said in the OP - yes there are lots of great musicians, I admire the work of all the musicians you've posted.

And no, no-one (yet) has been able to identify a generational figure in out music equivalent to Bird or Louis, who BTW were known to be very important at the time, not decades later, because they influenced their contemporaries right away. The truth is, no such central figures exist.

Why?

I don't honestly think it's the fault of the musicians - or that we can even say that Bird etc are de facto better players than the players we have today.

Probably the jazz world is just too global and diverse to allow figures of that kind to emerge.

A lot of the history of jazz is a few hundred people living in each others pockets in New York. I still feel there's a strong direction there, and a strong respect for basic straightahead playing, although things are more fragmented now.... Probably started with Coltrane, to some extent?

Jazz's connection to American popular music has weakened over the years too...

So... here we are. I think we are in the eclectic post-jazz environment. I rather like it. Perhaps the important musicians are almost like curators of different things (such as Bill Frisell) rather than originators. Frisell is probably the musician with the approach that feels most natural and appropriate for this era... Obviously there are others like him, Dave Douglas, Julian Lage etc.

So jazz 1920-70 is one of those sources.

[mr. beaumont]

Man, you guys are missing the point. I was addressing one topic that came up in this thread--the idea that people aren't looking for new material to make into "jazz tunes."

It's one of the many things jazz players whine about that isn't true.

[princeplanet]

Man, you guys are missing the point. I was addressing one topic that came up in this thread--the idea that people aren't looking for new material to make into "jazz tunes."

It's one of the many things jazz players whine about that isn't true.

Haha! Yes, and point well made, and illustrated...

[eddy b.]

Wine a little, it'll make you feel better...

[destinytot]

Man, you guys are missing the point. I was addressing one topic that came up in this thread--the idea that people aren't looking for new material to make into "jazz tunes."

It's one of the many things jazz players whine about that isn't true.

Folk-rock is my new best friend.

[christianm77]

Man, you guys are missing the point. I was addressing one topic that came up in this thread--the idea that people aren't looking for new material to make into "jazz tunes."

It's one of the many things jazz players whine about that isn't true.

It was hard to work out what your point was from the post.

In my case, I'm actually toying with the idea of doing this in my trio, rather than the standards song book or a bunch of originals. It seems pretty fun, could go down well with the audience. TBH I'll probably just nick everyone else's ideas to get started - so I'll definitely watch those videos.

On the other hand, it does make doing an album more difficult, and I would lose a potential income stream I could get by playing my own tunes, which I suppose is why most people do one or two rather than a whole project.

I really like this:

[mr. beaumont]

It was hard to work out what your point was from the post.

I'm not sure why, it follows one member saying we should look to Prince, Stevie Wonder, et al. for new standards and another saying that most drummers wouldn't be able to handle it.

I also explain my post again a few posts later.

[Lazz]

known to be very important at the time, not decades later, because they influenced their contemporaries right away

Joe Zawinul
Julian Arguelles
Hermeto Pascoal
Rita Marcotulli
Django Bates
Paolo Fresu

each had/has influence on their contemporaries right away

[destinytot]

I'm not sure why, it follows one member saying we should look to Prince, Stevie Wonder, et al. for new standards and another saying that most drummers wouldn't be able to handle it.

I also explain my post again a few posts later.

I may have been the first to have posted that Joey D trio clip, and I'm certainly biased in favour of everything about it - especially the players and the groove.

That song is in The Standards Real Book.

But what Joey does between 5:50 and 7:30 isn't - yet.

[destinytot]

Loved this band - Stan Getz, Chick Corea, Stanley Clarke, Tony Williams:

[mr. beaumont]

I may have been the first to have posted that Joey D trio clip, and I'm certainly biased in favour of everything about that clip - especially the players and the groove.

That song is in The Standards Real Book.

But what Joey does between 5:50 and 7:30 isn't - yet.

The Sher one? Cool, I had no idea.

I had to learn it for a stage show about 10 years ago, a Quincy Jones tribute thing. It has great changes.

[Stevebol]

I'm not sure why, it follows one member saying we should look to Prince, Stevie Wonder, et al. for new standards and another saying that most drummers wouldn't be able to handle it.

I also explain my post again a few posts later.

Jazz musicians very wisely avoided the old R&B circuit overseas in the 'band days'. We just had a thing about being tight because of the long hours. We guessed right about Prince. It was all drum machines in the studio till around 86-87'. In general, people who played R&B weren't exactly tech-savvy. Hip Hop is.
There's no way I would try to do old-school with a real drummer.

[destinytot]

The Sher one? Cool, I had no idea.

I had to learn it for a stage show about 10 years ago, a Quincy Jones tribute thing. It has great changes.

Yes - great lyrics too.

And great changes can work in any style.

[christianm77]

I'm not sure why, it follows one member saying we should look to Prince, Stevie Wonder, et al. for new standards and another saying that most drummers wouldn't be able to handle it.

I also explain my post again a few posts later.

TBH I probably wasn't paying that much attention.

[christianm77]

Joe Zawinul
Julian Arguelles
Hermeto Pascoal
Rita Marcotulli
Django Bates
Paolo Fresu

each had/has influence on their contemporaries right away

Kind of suggests that the scene has diversified/globalised. E.g. Bates pivotally important to UK jazz (actually I've never checked him out really but I have been influenced by him second hand from everyone on the UK jazz scene that has been influenced by him haha.) Has he had an influence overseas?

Bird influenced all his contemporaries. But that was in New York. People had to go to New York to experience it direct.

[John A.]

I was hoping this thread wouldn't descend into a debate about which era of Jazz is better or more worthy etc. What interests me is, if we accept '20 to '70 as being a "Classic" period in Jazz, what makes it "Classic"? And surely the answer helps us understand what makes any special era, in anything, "Classic". Surely the zeitgeist, or gestalt of the times focus a lot of energy on some "new thing" that excites everyone and attracts the best people to it, outdoing each other and over achieving, creating impossible new benchmarks.

In a recent Jackie McLean interview I read how the competition in Harlem was ferocious, where everyone was trying to get on the scene, Rollins came from the same neighbourhood and forced some great players to just quit because they couldn't compete. People reacted very quickly, when Rollins heard Bird on Tenor, he went away to Chicago for 9 months and had completely reinvented his sound, Jackie had just been playing for 4 years before he was playing tunes he wrote with Miles.

In incredible times when the flood gates are first opened, there's a mad rush and only the truly extraordinary people rise to the top, claim their patch so to speak. They're bouncing off the mood of the times, the combined energy of entire populations create these movements. This intense pressure creates diamonds, lots of them. After 1970, there was little wind in the sails for Jazz. Other vistas were opening up and people were rushing there instead.

It is what it is, '20 to '70 was the Golden half century for Jazz. The period since has been great too, but we can't pretend we still live in an ongoing Classic Jazz era. Let's be glad it happened at all, and make the most of it's aftermath, the ripples from it's wake are still being felt, and long may they be...

One man's classic era is another man's ...? Alls I know is I grew up in NYC, and started getting into jazz ca. 1980. Maybe there was no Mintons or 52 Street by then, but 7th Avenue South, 55 Bar(s), jazz lofts, Mikell's, Knitting Factory, Bradley's, Vanguard, etc., were all happening. So if there is a watershed year, 1970 ain't it for me. There was tons of mind-expanding and bootie-inspiring stuff going on later than that, and there still is (or so the kids tell me. I'm an old fart, so what do I know?). The past was better for some, but the present is here now, which (if you like live music) is a significant advantage.

John

[Stevebol]

Folk-rock is my new best friend.

Do tell!
Maybe I need to do someone else's gig before I can do mine. I need musicians with more balls than brains to do what I want.
I saw your vids. Don't forget a shout-out for Tibet.

[rkwestcoast]

"The best (most culturally significant) jazz was produced in the era 1920s-1970. To me that's as near an objective fact as anything in music."

Culturally significant to who? There isn't one, monolithic jazz culture out there so it can be hard to make these type of claims, I think, as an absolute............

In terms of this generation of greats 'cos we are mid-stream in the flow it can be hard to see who is sinking, who's making waves and who is just riding the current that said...............

I have a strong feeling that we will feel the resonance and influence of the Esbjorn Svensson Trio for a long time - I suspect that we will see a generation of players coming up in the next 10 years heavily influenced by their writing, their playing and their approach to improvisation.............

[Lazz]

Has he had an influence overseas?

Sure he has.
I know Hermeto digs him, as does Tim Berne.
He is professor also at academies in Europe - so his influence has carried across borders as well as oceans.

Something I have never felt need to own up to here yet is that I was founder-manager of Loose Tubes. And, even though I am now many miles away on the edge of the Pacific, west-coast players are always keen to talk to me on the subject of Bates et. al. - and we only ever did two gigs out here, and that was thirty-two years ago.
So I believe the impact to be broad and profound.

Yes, the music scene is way more diverse and global than previously. The infrastructure for the arts in general has changed enormously since the '70s/'80s, although much more of it survives in Europe. But I think it's near finished in North America where it seems unlikely that organisations like the German radio big-bands or the Metropole Orkest in the Nederlands, for example, could ever find seeding or career legs.

(I meant to have Nathalie Lorier on that list, but forgot - there are just too many significant artists around to think about)