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Last edited by Groyniad; 02-08-2016 at 07:16 AM.
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02-06-2016 03:19 PM
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more than fifty years separates these takes
if we've 'moved on' i can't hear it (some 4ths surely don't count)
shows how fab. bernstein is that he can sound this good after art - (zeus) - tatum
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Many years ago, Art Tatum entered a club where Fats Waller was playing. Fats interrupted his playing and announced: "You know, I play the piano, but God is in the house to night."
Hank Jones heard Tatum on record for the first time as a teenager. He got angry with with his friend for bullsh****** him by insisting that there was only one piano player when Jones could clearly hear that there was at least three.
Herbie Hancock declared that "Tatum was the eight wonder of the world, period" .
When Charlie Parker arrived in NY, he took a job as a dishwasher at a club where Tatum played - to study Tatums playing.
Tatum was beyond everybody else.Last edited by oldane; 02-06-2016 at 03:44 PM.
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he seems pretty clearly to me to be beyond everyone else
bud powell can be found - just about - somewhere inside tatum's style
there seem to me to be very bop-ish figures in the build up to the tune here (powell-like)
but the rhythmical mastery is just insane - and that half-snarl thing on his face - wow.
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Or the other way around - the boppers had part of their vocabulary from Tatum. Bud Powell admired Tatum endlessly and once when Tatum had acknowledged Powells playing, Powells jubilations knew no limit. BTW, Bud Powell is - along with Tatum - one of my top favorite musicians and is one of my big inspirations - if only I could play it.
Tatum's rhythmic mastery is surely insane. He made it sound so easy, light and casual. Actually, he practiced for hours every day. One doesn't end up playng like that without hard work.Last edited by oldane; 02-06-2016 at 06:08 PM.
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mine too - i fell in love with jazz because of 'strictly confidential' and 'celia'
i love the story about the one-handed piano player....i'm sure you know it
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I do. It was at that occation that Powell jubilated.
Originally Posted by Groyniad
It calls for respect that Powell was able to play at that very high level despite his tragic mental illness (schizophrenia) and - after the mid 1950s - the motor side effects of his Chlorpromazine treatment. He lost speed but gained in depth. He was one of those jazzmen who never gave way to any commercial opportunism.
The following 1960 clip is from Jazzhouse Montmartre in the town where I grew up, Copenhagen. Regrettably I was too young to hear him then. Not the old virtuosity but his chords sounded like they were rooted at the center of the earth. (Also note a very young NHOP (15 years)).
Last edited by oldane; 02-06-2016 at 05:46 PM.
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Not sure I get it.... what we are supposed to feel inferior to piano players? I was never fascinated with piano that much, guitar is more versatile, more powerful, more hip...or hep
Can you strum a piano? Can you make it scream and roar? No, ok then, next please!
Now organ players, thats different story.
Art Tatum is a beast, though, no questions.
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It not about piano versus guitar. It's about music. And yes, Tatum was a beast. We're all supposed to feel inferior to him.
Last edited by oldane; 02-06-2016 at 06:01 PM.
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About music what? It says 'guitar vs piano- no contest'. What is the contest then?
I think some time ago Irez started a thread like that, only voting for guitar instead. It was tongue in cheek, funny as hell, but he made a good point.
From personal experience piano players could be a real PIA, the reason I actually stopped going to a local jam. Those guys would play never ending solos, using the weirdest chords they can come up with, and no, you can't comp while they playing, they'd give you an evil eye. I'm talking about supposedly top NYC modern players, worked with Kenny Garrett and guys like that, playing gigs at Smalls every week... So you stay there like a doofus, waiting for 10 min till they done, and then maybe they let you comp when it's a sax solo turn... Which is another 10 min, but at least the horn players have an excuse...
So yea, screw them, the guitar rules!
Except Art Tatum, he would do no such thing
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Both beautiful versions of that song. Tatum takes a more "classical" approach to playing, whereas Bernstein plays with more feeling and depth IMO. That's part of the nature of the guitar that allows for more individual expression, especially when not playing at light speed, as Mr. Tatum usually does on piano.
The first Art Tatum album I ever got had that song, plus my personal Tatum favorite Jitterbug Waltz. As far as I can tell in that clip he plays Yesterdays almost note for note the same as he did on the recording. Which is interesting, because he was known as a stellar improviser, yet maybe on many occasions, once he had worked out the notes, he played it back like playing a written piece.
As I'm sure you all know, Tatum was blind from the age of 4. I wonder if he might have had Asperger's syndrome, which would explain not only his intense virtuosic focus but also his unusual demeanor and the fact that he played things like this almost like a recording, not a brand new improvisation. Though reportedly later in his career and especially after hours in the clubs he liked to cut loose.
Not to detract from his unparalleled skills, of course. The only person who could touch him technique-wise was Oscar Peterson, but even Oscar thought Tatum was the king. Bud Powell was very influenced by Tatum--there's this funny story about them:
Powell was opening for Tatum once and reportedly said to him, "Man, I'm going to really show you about tempo and playing fast. Anytime you're ready." Tatum laughed and replied, "Look, you come in here tomorrow, and anything you do with your right hand, I'll do with my left." Powell never took up the challenge.
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dr. j. - that's the story of the one handed pianist i referred to
and as i knew the story bud did take up the challenge by playing some crazy left handed thing that made tatum change his tune (details anyone?)
and i'm not really guitar-bashing so much as piano-praising
bernstein's version is gloriously good - deeply musical and natural and fresh
but the tatum is all on its own - its the drive and the effortlessness and the scale of it all
but tatum is inconceivable on any other instrument - he demonstrates the majesty of the instrument
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and httj - being able to make it scream and raw means nothing to me. and the guitar seems hip to us - to the extent that it does - because of its role in rock and roll - it is hendrix that makes the guitar hip not e.g. barney kessel - and that doesn't mean anything to me either.
i suppose my thought - which i did not spell out at all - was that there's a musical stature to the piano which the guitar just can't match - even when its played as well as pb plays it
another example would be the bill evans jim hall records. jim hall is wonderful - but its evans that is making everything possible. jh would be the first to insist on this i'm sure.
two equally able musicians - one playing piano the other guitar - the pianist makes more music (or something like that).
i just dig the music - so i don't feel bad about this.Last edited by Groyniad; 02-06-2016 at 08:19 PM.
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The pianist makes more music- what does it even mean?? They can play more notes at the same time? Or the range is wider? Then what do you think of horn players, how much music do they make on your scale?
Where did you get those ideas, 'musical stature' and all? It's just like, you know, your opinion man! Guitar is more expressive instrument IMO, equal, or ok, maybe second to horns, in jazz anyway. You don't dig Jimi? Fair enough (no surprises here), but what about Scofield, Frisell, Metheny, those guys made the guitar sound absolutely unique, with no pianists in the world would be able to replicate those sounds!
Now, repeat after me, 'Say It Loud, I Play Guitar And I'm Proud!', c'mon, you know you always wanted to
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As I read the story, Tatum, who had a very competive mindset, had needled Powell about bop pianists not having any left hand to speak of. Then Powell played a whole tune with his right hand behind his back and did sound full enough. After that, Tatum said to a friend: "I told him he don't have a left hand but he surely has. But please, don't let him know I said that." However, the friend did tell Powell and that was the cause for Powells jubilations that night. Originally Posted by Groyniad
But what do I know, I was not present. Maybe that story is - just a story.
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Here's a Jazz Times article on Tatum with several quotes from fellow musicians, plus the story of the Powell/Tatum contest--comes down on Tatum's side in this telling.
Jazz Articles: Art Tatum: No Greater Art - By Bret Primack ? Jazz Articles
Interesting that he listened to or played music virtually all his waking hours. The comment about sports statistics also reminds me of Asperger's. One of these days I will have to read a full biography on him, right after all those other jazz biographies I have on my agenda.
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You're right, it's not a contest.
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Some years back, I told my non-musician brother that I had participated in a jam with some people I didn't know beforehand but it was at the house of a neighbor of his that he knew.
"Were you the best?" he asked?
I said, "Yes, I guess so. But making music isn't a competition; it's a collaboration."
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10,000 hours on Jazz piano, vs 10,000 doing Jazz guitar chord melody- who will sound most impressive to the listener? OK, not a fair question, who will feel the most musical satisfaction as a player? My bet the piano player wins on both counts.
Hmmm, I think that's the reason why I don't try to be so great doing CM on guitar, if I like to play chords and melody at the same time, I think I'd rather use the time learning to do it on piano, it's the perfect instrument for it with far fewer compromises and far less frustrations (which = more enjoyment, no?).
Of course, you might argue that if that's the way I feel about it, then why even learn to comp guitar when piano is better for it, or why learn to play single line on guitar when horns are better for it? Good question! Ya got me! However, I will say that I think good guitar comping is not that inferior to piano comping, and good guitar soloing is not that inferior to horn blowing whereas good chord and melody on guitar is way inferior to good piano playing. All subjective you say? Then go ask a panel of listeners (musicians and non-musicians alike) and see what they think. Or just look at the history of jazz sales for both recordings and concerts and do the math....
Let's face it, only guitarists know how difficult the instrument is, and even then you have rock /blues/metal/pop guitarists that will never imagine how damn difficult high level jazz playing actually really is on our instrument. Yup, no one gives us bonus points for "degree of difficulty", so for each of us, it's the cross we must bear.
Onwards and upwards, my fellow masochists, for the last one up Jazz Guitar Mountain is a rotten egg!
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Chord-melody guitar is passe, and has been for a long time. But some modern guitar guys can do solo guitar excellent with playing the melody and improvising, and throwing chords here and there as well...
The truth is guitar can be so much more expressive than piano, just think what we have available that pianists don't: glissandos, slurring, pitch bending, vibrato, chord sliding, tons of different techniques to attack the strings, electric guitars have unlimited sonic possibilities- all of it creates so much choices , colors! Piano players do have an advantage in creating poly-chords, and just the sheer range of notes available, but so what, who cares! Different beasts, that's all.
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Yeah, I guess I'm trying to figure out ways of doing things on guitar that other instruments won't (whether they can or not
)....
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Because that's not true. It may hold water for maybe some very specific and narrow type/ style of JAZZ, but on global scheme of things, guitar is THE instrument of many styles of music, piano is of NONE. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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I dont agree with that. I believe that it is largely the musician and the way he/she plays whatever instrument he/she happens to play which dertermines how expressive the music is. Here I understand the word "expressive" in an artistic way - "communicating a feeling" if you like. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
There are many musicians who have expressed themselves very richly within a narrow range. Chet Baker is one, both his trumpet playing and singing. And me being from Scandinavia, I'll mention the Swedish pianist Jan Johansson's classic record "Jazz på Svenska" (="Jazz in Swedish") which is a perfect example of how much can be expressed with only two instruments (piano and bass) playing in a most minimalistic way. On "Folk forms no.1" from Charles Mingus' "Charles Mingus presents Charles Mingus" there's a sequence (about 10 minutes into the tune) where Mingus and drummer Danny Richmond plays alone - only bass and drums, but I'd be hard pressed to find anything more expressive and hard swinging.
There are also many examples of how all those options which the gutar - especially the electric guitar - offers can be abused in all kinds of bad taste.
From the world of photography, I'd like to quote the late Life photographer Alfred Eisenstaedt: "Good pictures are not about having all kinds of fancy gear. It's about seeing as a photographer and being inventive with whatvever gear you have." I think that applies to music too - and to everything else for that matter.
However, I do aknowledge that part of the reason we disagree is that there are so many ways to listen to and percieve music and not two persons do it the same way. Music that brings tears to my eyes may leave others cold - and vice versa.Last edited by oldane; 02-08-2016 at 07:13 AM.
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i'm sorry for starting this - really
the 'more music' thing is silly of course. you can't quantify how much music is being made at any one time.
i adore the pb take of yesterdays - its really is just that i hadn't heard tatum for ages and he struck me as simply awe-inspiring (he would certainly have made oscar feel inferior!!!!!)
so silly enthusiasm about tatum led me to make an apparently negative remark about the guitar
nonsense - really
and the pb version is wonderfully musical.
but by the same token i really can't go along with the proposal that the guitar is hipper than the piano or more expressive. that's just as crazy as the other way around.
its the musician that is expressive or passe or stilted or graceful not the instrument
i love the guitar - crawling, as it does between the earth of polyphony and the heaven of melodyLast edited by Groyniad; 02-08-2016 at 07:09 AM.
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i'm a barney kessel; jim hall; kenny b.; wes; jim hall; tal farlow; jimmy raney kind of guy - i really don't dig the guys you mention here - and i've tried. (also bill evans - but not so much with corea or jarrett etc. etc.) Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
The pianist makes more music- what does it even mean?? They can play more notes at the same time? Or the range is wider? Then what do you think of horn players, how much music do they make on your scale?
Where did you get those ideas, 'musical stature' and all? It's just like, you know, your opinion man! Guitar is more expressive instrument IMO, equal, or ok, maybe second to horns, in jazz anyway. You don't dig Jimi? Fair enough (no surprises here), but what about Scofield, Frisell, Metheny, those guys made the guitar sound absolutely unique, with no pianists in the world would be able to replicate those sounds!
Now, repeat after me, 'Say It Loud, I Play Guitar And I'm Proud!', c'mon, you know you always wanted to
so - its a serious point - the various ways of modifying the classic archtop sound using electricity of one kind or another doesn't do it for me. but i love the way the guys above sound - and wes' sound very often just blows my mind.
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+1. Originally Posted by Groyniad
It's about the musician and the music being played, not about the instrument. That said, also in my book Tatum was beyond everybody else, irrespective instrument. But that's about Tatum and his musicianship, not about piano or not piano.
IMHO, your enthusiasm for Tatum is fully justified, and I don't think you should feel sorry for having started this thread. Sometimes we may get far too guitar centered and narrow minded and it's good to be reminded that there is something else out there which can inspire us. We should listen a lot more to Tatum, Powell, Lester Young, Bird, Duke, Mingus etc. etc.
Some days ago somebody mentioned that Charlie Christian invented the modern jazz guitar playing. One may say that he did, but he was certainly solidly rooted in Lester Young and what he heard at Mintons at those jams. I'll venture to say that the way Chuck Berry handles the rhythm in his solo in "Johnny B. Goode" is straight out of Lester Youngs playing.Last edited by oldane; 02-08-2016 at 11:17 AM.
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