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Originally Posted by targuit
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02-05-2016 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by christianm77
The "King of Jazz" in the 1920s was Paul Whiteman, who is dismissed by many fans today as---one might now call it---lame. He commissioned Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue." Here's a "video" of it from 1930.
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Jazz was popular when it was an extension of pop and dance music.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Despite enormous popularity, The Beatles were considered "counterculture" by many. So was Dylan. In the '60s, one could be very popular---this was the Baby Boom----despite having no--or few-- fans over 30. ;o)
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Originally Posted by lammie200
It would notsurprise me if some strain of marijuana also bore that name now. But back then, this was understood to mean acid (or, if you prefer, LSD).
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Sly's 'Thank You' changed everything. The world became a very funky place.
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Originally Posted by targuit
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Ray Noble's early British bands are a bit like that too. Every so often they let some jazz off, and then return to that sweet stuff....
Why waste time listening to Whiteman when you could listen to Duke Ellington? Very trendy though... People like that twee nonsense.... They can sit around eating their cupcakes and knitting their snoods to it.
I can hear it's quality twee nonsense though - impeccably played... Well it's nice. It causes no offense.
And yes he had some great jazz players in his band, including Eddie. But just because a jazz musician plays music don't make it jazz.
Rhapsody in Blue is good though, have to give him that.Last edited by christianm77; 02-05-2016 at 01:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
That was quite an artistic dance intro.
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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Originally Posted by christianm77
In the mid to late '60s there was a highly self-conscious sense of "otherness" among the young - centred primarily around the swelling popular consumption of recreational drugs. We liked to think of ourselves rather pretentiously as "underground" because the mainstream overground struggled to comprehend what was going on. There was much demonisation in the media - which was much provoked, much encouraged, and much reflected, by our behaviour.
The idea of counter-culture came from the heady dialectic of opposition to the dominant culture of the grown-up world made of adult survivors of war. We nursed the illusion of being an international band of brothers and sisters united around the same principles and values and understandings generated by the sacrament of LSD.
What we were, really, was a market segment, a demographic. One which continued - despite the British Invasion - to believe that the world and whatever in it that was important to us kiddies, this world and the excitement of real life was taking place elsewhere. In America.
Then, here comes Jimi.
Jimi was American. He was black. He was exotic. He became convenient repository of our racial myths about sexual danger. He represented a whole bunch of imagined funky shit that we had never had before. Perfect outlaw material. And so we appropriated him and his music as symbols of authenticity for our pretend counter-culture. Easy.
Jimi had potent counter-cultural meaning for the underground, alright. But, as a commercial commodity who moved units, he was an overtly overground success, a household name, on the telly, recognisable from front pages, even grannie knew who he was. How much more mainstream can it get?
The British Invasion was a funny thing. Acne-ridden white boys selling counterfeit copies of black music to a US market ignorant of its own culture. How ridiculous. Many of us were amazed they got away with it.
While the Dave Clark Five were laughed at at home, they were actually in the Vanguard of that faux moment.
Can you believe it?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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I had a jazz guitar teacher who said to me, "there are more people making a good living in the NBA than there are musicians making a good living playing jazz guitar".
That was Bill Thrasher who said that, the year... 1977.
I'd guess things have only gotten worse for jazz musicians (and better for NBA players). Kind of puts things in perspective.
If you are making a good living playing jazz guitar, you are a rare bird indeed.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
"Paul Whiteman was known as the King of Jazz, and no one as yet has come near carrying that title with more certainty and dignity." Duke Ellington
You might possibly get a kick out of more real history as opposed to myth. I mean, the myth is crucial - can't escape it in the business of entertainment - and it clearly does have both meaning and great significance - but, for me, personally, the biggest slice of fun I get since I started to study the history of western popular music more assiduously and critically is to discover that most everything we believe to be true is likely complete bollocks.
If you're interested in that style of fun, of course.
For me, it's a perfect fit for my own naturally iconoclastic tendencies.
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From my perspective, it seems that most of the people who are concerned that jazz is dead are performers. Sure, I'd like to have a venue where I could sit down with a beverage and groove to some cool jazz, but I think very many of us who don't play out (or just love to listen) revel in our elitism. Hating rock 'n' roll or rap for their lack of sophistication is a different brand of discrimination. I see some elitism and arrogance in a lot of players, too.
Now I'll duck.
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
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Originally Posted by MaxTwang
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
In the 80's there was some interest in jazz among some punk artists. IIRC Henry Rollins gave a couple jazz artists their break and recorded them on his label.
Unfortunately the attempts at 'punk jazz' I've head focus on 'thrash' as a sound and not the passion to communicate.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
As for Ellington, he gave annual concerts at Carnegie Hall during the '40s for godsake; hardly the venue for someone far outside the mainstream. (Those were the Blanton / Webster years: to many ears, Duke's best orchestra.) His time was much longer than that of Hendrix of course----Duke recorded from the mid-20s until the early 70s.
Here's his 'final speech' from his 70th birthday concert (recorded in Manchester, I believe). Just wanted to hear it again.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Reading around the story of the Whiteman Orchestra is great fun. I think they established an Olympic standard for musicianly misbehaviour that was only surpassed by Charlie Barnett's mob. Bad boys. Very jazz.
The last surviving Whiteman band guy took the coda only a handful of years ago. Al Gallodoro - alto sax. Played right up until the end, after his 95th birthday. Toscanini favourite. Very jazz. But not exclusively. Unbelievable articulation that tricked my ears into thinking "violin" one minute and "button-accordion" the next. Phenomenal technique. Jimmy Dorsey called him the best who ever lived. Both Ellington and Bernstein, among others, dug him. And if you can raise any agreement that him in the Whiteman band didn't swing I'll eat my computer.
I remember myself dismissing that lot out of hand too, though - the Whitemans and Hendersons and Barnets - in my arrogant ignorant past.
But I'm better now, thanks.
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Originally Posted by Lazz
I know I don't like Paul Whiteman because every time I hear it and I don't like it I ask what it is and it's always Paul Whiteman.
But, yes there are some amazing stories. And those musicians made some records I really like in other settings... They were all motherfuckers. But I still don't like the Paul Whiteman Orchestra very much.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I did say I would enjoy being corrected.
Thanks for the information. I still think Duke was perhaps less mainstream than say Benny Goodman.... Jimi was less mainstream than ... ooh .. the Monkees?
These things are relative. They were still more mainstream than me :-)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
The bastards,
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Duke Ellington was nominated for a Pullitzer music price but ended being bypassed in favor of some pop singer. Asked his thoughts of that, he said: "I thank The Good Lord for not letting me to become famous too young." He was well into his sixties by then.
Why is the internet out of tune, and what can you...
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