Questions from the Ken Burns Jazz Series. Was Jazz Guitar truly that irrelevant?

[AlsoRan]

I finally had a chance to watch the entire Ken Burns Jazz series. The only guitarist I remembered hearing was a mention of Charlie Christian - and literally, just a mention of his name among others (I think in reference to Minton's Playhouse).

Is the guitar's contribution to Jazz really that irrelevant? Haven't things changed now to where the guitar has a much greater role? Could it just be that Ken Burns largely consulted horn players in putting together this series and they are responsible for the lack of Jazz Guitar?

By the way, I really enjoyed hearing about the various personalities that made Jazz. That Sidney Bechet (shaking my head) was really as much a character as he was a great musician.

[Stevebol]

yes.

[PaulHintz]

I haven't watched this for a very long time (have it on a set of videocassettes, from when it was first released...) But as I recall, there are so many things wrong with that series that it's hard to know where to start. The skewed view of several instruments. The total lack of important female musicians. As I recall, none of the important women in jazz were even mentioned. That the whole Big Band/WW II era could be skated over with nothing about the Sisters of Swing, just for one example, and instead we get lots of stock footage of war scenes. It's got some nice pics and quotes but it's mostly a monument to Wynton Marsalis's version of jazz history.

[Jehu]

It's got some nice pics and quotes but it's mostly a monument to Wynton Marsalis's version of jazz history.

I think this is your answer right here. (But as I recall, Freddie Green and Django also get a mention.)

[destinytot]

More than relevant, I think it's tops for chords and rhythm:

[KirkP]

... It's got some nice pics and quotes but it's mostly a monument to Wynton Marsalis's version of jazz history.

Wynton and these folks:
http://www.pbs.org/jazz/about/about_credits.htm

[neatomic]

to assume that a tv show is going to correctly portray the history of jazz...well

for me the most glaring omission..was a guy who not only had wicked chops, was loved by fellow musicians..and had hits!!! louis jordan!

the greats lurk beyond the ordinary


cheers

[henryrobinett]

I loved the series. I'm one of the few supporters of Ken Burns' Jazz. I don't know what to say. The subject has never been undertaken to the degree Burns did. And no, guitar has never been a major pivotal instrument in jazz. I guess that's what I've been saying as long as I've been on this forum. If you look at the lineage of the forces and musicians who created the language of jazz, it has never been the guitar, at least until you get to fusion. The language was developed by Hawkins, Armstrong, Lester, Rollins, Dexter, Duke, Tatum, Bird, Diz, Miles, Brownie, etc.

Here's what I think gets overlooked with Burns documentaries. He has a method. He looks at history through the eyes of specific people. He follows those lives. Any subject, like the civil war or prohibition or WWII, The Dust Bowel, The Roosevelts, are too huge to tackle as a subject alone. He rather seems to do it through the eyes and ears, letters and books of characters of specific people he follows. So he chose important figures in jazz: Jelly Roll, Louis Armstrong, Bechet, Duke, Europe . . . and couldn't make everyone happy. He couldn't follow everyone or even all styles, even if they were important. That's why he kept coming back to Armstrong and Duke. He was following their story and letting that line tell the history of its overall subject.

Its a method bound to upset those who have their hero's and know more than a little of the subject. I mean I was upset that Mingus was hardly mentioned. But you know, I appreciate the coverage of jazz over all. It was a herculean effort. I loved the series. When I taught the history of jazz course in my community college I always used a lot of it in class. The first, Gumbo, was amazing.

[Doctor Jeff]

I haven't seen the series in awhile, but as I recall it starts out with an orientation toward ragtime and brass bands, and then moves into big band and bebop and poops out about 1960. The major focus is on the innovative and colorful personalities like Louis Armstrong and Miles who drove the changes.

To be honest, (with some important exceptions--CC, Django, etc.) guitar was just a minor supportive instrument until the late 50's. It wasn't until the era of Wes and Kenny that guitar become a major solo instrument in its own right.

If you look at the list of episodes, there really isn't a place for solo guitar any more than there is for drum or bass or violin. I can see that to an archivist, with (IMO) a somewhat superficial understanding of the actual musical elements involved, guitar along with bass and drums and other solo instruments would get short shrift.

I think you could certainly add another episode looking at the contribution of guitar from the role driver of the swing in big bands to the small group combos with Kenny, Wes, Barney et al, to the guitar-centric groups we have now--influenced so much by rock music.

[henryrobinett]

to assume that a tv show is going to correctly portray the history of jazz...well

for me the most glaring omission..was a guy who not only had wicked chops, was loved by fellow musicians..and had hits!!! louis jordan!

the greats lurk beyond the ordinary


cheers

The series covered Jordon.

[yaclaus]

Jazz guitar started getting hot in the 60s onwards and that series stops with Ornette Coleman go figure.

Lang
Django
Christian
Wes
Pass
Green
Benson
Martino
Metheny
Sco
Rosenwinkel
Gilad
The Lages

No way jazz guitar is irrevelant

[neatomic]

The series covered Jordon.

?????


musta been the 2 seconds i napped thru!

haha


btw, im not condemning it, just not the one stop be all...is all

cheers

[Doctor Jeff]

Well it's not irrelevant but as Henry points out above it wasn't extremely relevant in terms of the language of jazz until the mid-60's, with Wes' very successful pop-oriented albums.

Of course it took off after that and jazz overall became much more guitar-focused--McLaughlin, Dimeola, Benson, etc. But that wasn't a part of Burns' story.

[destinytot]

By the way, I really enjoyed hearing about the various personalities that made Jazz.

So did I, despite any omissions. (I ordered the series as a boxed set of Region 1 DVDs as soon as it became available, because I could only find a shorter version in the UK.) But I'm an idealist and a romantic.

I haven't watched it for years, but the Brubeck interview stays with me - though I remember thinking that a particularly poignant anecdote suffered because of the addition of music.

I've found that anecdote on YouTube. Brubeck, God bless him, speaks for himself. (I don't care for the word 'jazz', but this is also why I play this music.)

[fumblefingers]

Jazz guitar started getting hot in the 60s onwards and that series stops with Ornette Coleman go figure.

Lang
Django
Christian
Wes
Pass
Green
Benson
Martino
Metheny
Sco
Rosenwinkel
Gilad
The Lages

No way jazz guitar is irrevelant

Yep, but you forgot Barney, Tal, Jim.

After Wes you rightfully have Benson and Martino as post boppers. But they had two contemporaries that must be included (historians already have, in fact) - Larry Coryell and especially John McLaughlin. Without them, you can erase everyone after Martino in your list.

And while your last four are fine (starting with Rosenwinkel), Frisell stands as more important as of this date.

[fumblefingers]

K. Burns can suck it.


And missing Django and Charlie Christian is a huge omission, probably intentional.

With regards to the two Charlies, it can be argued that Christian broke bop ground before Parker did. Only his death makes it easier to argue the flip side.

[KirkP]

No discussion of KB Jazz is complete without a reference to this parody:
http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010215.htm

Excerpt-
Wynton Marsalis: I'll tell you what Skunkbucket LeFunke sounded like. He had this big rippling sound, and he always phrased off the beat, and he slurred his notes. And when the Creole bands were still playing De-bah-de-bah-ta-da-tah, he was already playing Bo-dap-da-lete-do-do-do-bah! He was just like gumbo, ahead of his time.

[henryrobinett]

Christian was never a bop guitarist. He was post swing, at best. Even though he was one of the first to hang at Mintons, but so was Ben Webster and Coleman Hawkins.

Guitar bias. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees. Guitar had very, very little to do with the development of jazz. It just didn't. Maybe because without amplification guitar had little impact because it couldn't be heard. But in those days especially, it's folk roots were shwing too much to be considered hip enough. Delta blues, as hip as we think it is now, was country bumpkin stuff to the boppers and swing guys.

But when I think of jazz and its development I'm thinking of harmony, the extensions, enclosures, bebop, comping roles, kick drum, swing, walking bass that came about from the territory bands of Basie and those guys. The development of the line and phrasing. Guitar had none of that. It followed and found its role. The primary figures of the rhythm section saw guitar as an add on. Freddie Green, not Jo Jones or even Blanton.

[yaclaus]

I spent 30 seconds making that list. Missing out Jim Hall though.... wow, I HATE myself for that

[henryrobinett]

I'm not talking great players. There are plenty of great guitar players. But none of them DEVELOPED THE LANGUAGE of jazz. Coltrane and McCoy and Miles modalism. Bird, Diz, Bud, Monk with bop. Lester with laid back swing phrasing. Hawkins with arpeggiated elaborate harmony. Armstrong with beautiful improv and melodic construction/invention. Coleman with free jazz. Trane sheets of sound. Rollins Mingus Monk post bop. Hard Bop.

The language. The language. Not great players.

[AlsoRan]

?????


musta been the 2 seconds i napped thru!

haha


btw, im not condemning it, just not the one stop be all...is all

cheers

Yes, I also do remember that Jordan was covered. It was a nice little piece that captured his personality and caught my attention. I believe it was during the part where they talked about Basie and the Blues in Missouri.

I also forgot that Django (and Grappelli) were actually mentioned, as one of the posters reminded me, in the part about the French Jazz Movement.

No harm done, my friend.

[fumblefingers]

Christian was never a bop guitarist. He was post swing, at best. Even though he was one of the first to hang at Mintons, but so was Ben Webster and Coleman Hawkins.

Guitar bias. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees. Guitar had very, very little to do with the development of jazz. It just didn't. Maybe because without amplification guitar had little impact because it couldn't be heard. But in those days especially, it's folk roots were shwing too much to be considered hip enough. Delta blues, as hip as we think it is now, was country bumpkin stuff to the boppers and swing guys.

But when I think of jazz and its development I'm thinking of harmony, the extensions, enclosures, bebop, comping roles, kick drum, swing, walking bass that came about from the territory bands of Basie and those guys. The development of the line and phrasing. Guitar had none of that. It followed and found its role. The primary figures of the rhythm section saw guitar as an add on. Freddie Green, not Jo Jones or even Blanton.

"post swing", eh? well OK. and i said "broke bop ground" (not "built the bop skyscraper").

so this seems to be "arguing in the margins" to me. yes? no?


and up to Charlie's time there is no debate about development of "the language", as you say. but then, Charlie was amplified, to your point. but it/he was much, much more than that. it can be argued that he changed a lot about jazz music and ALL guitar music (barring classical). Benny Goodman stated that Charlie influenced him, and influenced everybody around him....

These days, now and then, you can hear virtually any/every solo instrument play a Christian riff, and done with pride and dare i say, joy.

I'm not backin' off this Christian thing, lol.

[Stevebol]

Choosing to be a jazz guitarist is like becoming a nun and then wondering why you don't date.

da da boom.....

[destinytot]

Choosing to be a jazz guitarist is like becoming a nun and then wondering why you don't date.

da da boom.....

On the other hand, 'sisters are doing it for themselves' - by which I mean that guitarists' improvised chord solos can give the guitar a unique voice, and amplification allows the instrument to bloom all over again.

[fumblefingers]

i also hate to state the obvious, but

who sold more LPs in their peak career years, Coleman Hawkins, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane and Ornette Coleman,

or

Wes Montgomery, George Benson, John McLaughlin, and Pat Metheny?

"irrelevance" my foot.