Jazz as a medium of self expression

[henryrobinett]

Some people think of jazz, guitar, music, writing, painting as SELF EXPRESSION. It's creative. Nothing wrong with learning from the masters, but at a certain point you've got to put your big boy pants on. The notion that one MUST do it like X or try and PLAY like X, Y or Z just never made sense to me. And I know I'm way in the minority here, but GOD DAMMIT it just seems that some people miss the entire point.

Personally I've never been interested in playing like ANYBODY. But that doesn't sit right with some people. Licks are crucial for getting vocabulary together. Solos are studied to understand the language. But if the goal is to delve into the depths of SELF and draw musical portraits of the inner world of Me, why would I want to wear someone else's underwear? It's a little like memorizing a bunch of sentences so you can fool others into thinking you know what you're talking about WHEN YOU DON'T. I'll memorize these speeches and pull them out when I need to impress someone. Then over time I'll get my own language together. Well that's great. It's a tried and true method.

But what if someone has enough gumption, or ability or balls to do it differently? It pisses people off. If the goal is to play YOU don't play someone else, even if it stinks.

But that's too often not the goal. Too many people want to play LIKE someone else. That's ok. But don't assume that I do. And that shouldn't piss anyone off. We can get proprietary and possessive about our heros, teachers methods. Sure it's harder to get work and define yourself when you don't sound like x,y or z. Ok. So? I've done ok.

Sorry for this rant. Every now and again this comes up for me. Back to your regular scheduled programming.

[vintagelove]

Some people think of jazz, guitar, music, writing, painting as SELF EXPRESSION. It's creative. Nothing wrong with learning from the masters, but at a certain point you've got to put your big boy pants on. The notion that one MUST do it like X or try and PLAY like X, Y or Z just never made sense to me. And I know I'm way in the minority here, but GOD DAMMIT it just seems that some people miss the entire point.

Personally I've never been interested in playing like ANYBODY. But that doesn't sit right with some people. Licks are crucial for getting vocabulary together. Solos are studied to understand the language. But if the goal is to delve into the depths of SELF and draw musical portraits of the inner world of Me, why would I want to wear someone else's underwear? It's a little like memorizing a bunch of sentences so you can fool others into thinking you know what you're talking about WHEN YOU DON'T. I'll memorize these speeches and pull them out when I need to impress someone. Then over time I'll get my own language together. Well that's great. It's a tried and true method.

But what if someone has enough gumption, or ability or balls to do it differently? It pisses people off. If the goal is to play YOU don't play someone else, even if it stinks.

But that's too often not the goal. Too many people want to play LIKE someone else. That's ok. But don't assume that I do. And that shouldn't piss anyone off. We can get proprietary and possessive about our heros, teachers methods. Sure it's harder to get work and define yourself when you don't sound like x,y or z. Ok. So? I've done ok.

Sorry for this rant. Every now and again this comes up for me. Back to your regular scheduled programming.

The definition of an artist. Well said.

[pingu]

yeah i think thats cool Henry....
but i'm still at the learning the language stage , so i'm copping licks off people
like you !

[MarkRhodes]

Well, Henry, your goal is to play YOU.

I think that is a poor goal. You're you no matter what you play. Or how. Your identity is not at issue here. You are no more YOU for coming up with your own fingerings or never learning licks. It's how you are. And part of being who you are is going off on rants like this too. No one has ever given you static for not wanting to play like other people. No one here has tried to tell you what you "have" to do. So far as I know----and as moderator, I tend to hear such things---no one is pissed off at you about this (or anything else). This is just YOU being YOU, and frankly, it's unappealing.


You seem to be the only one upset, and it's not about anything that anyone has done to you or said about you.

[fep]

Yep, I'm not interested in sounding like someone else. What I want is to get to the point were I just sound good.

I don't copy licks, but I do write down my own.
Yet, I still try to learn from others. Not interested in reinventing the wheel.

For me, writing tunes is the best means of self-expression I've found. It's always been a curiosity to me that some musicians don't actually write tunes. Why not?

[destinytot]

Try the template below - it worked for me:

Dear Santa,

I've been a very good boy/girl/other this year.

Please could you make me sound like (hero's name goes here - use continuation sheets if necessary)?

Yours gratefully,

(sign here)

[Stevebol]

Jazz musicians ask me, where do you get your shit man. I say, I'm not sure blah blah blah. They say, I don't believe you where do you get it.....
I DON'T KNOW.
It's life experience.
I can't play jazz but women think I can. Some men think I can, some don't. It drives me up a wall.
To get technical about it, I based a lot of what I do on just a knowledge of chords, which wasn't all that good, and scales. Then there's rhythm. That's about it.
Oh, before I forget. James Brown was the greatest genius in the history of recorded music. That's right, I said it.
Carry on.

[destinytot]

I'll copy anything from anyone if I can - just because I can.

What I do with it is another question.

Which is why, when I wrote and recorded my own blues, I sang it in German - kind of one of those songs.

Catharsis - cleansing and renewal - matters more to me than expression. Also sprach Herr McKoy ​- and all that 'jazz'.

[Irez87]

My frustration comes in the form of comping. I am trying to break away from the grips that a lot of other guitarists play and cop some piano movement (it's all about those little horizontal melodies, in my mind). Doesn't sit well with some folks, but it's what makes comping exciting for me (even with the mistakes) and helps me work towards something different.

What is disconcerting to me is the notion of playing being purely a physical and automatic process where everything is memorized and nothing is new. I dig jazz because of the communication, not the muscular playing. But if someone plays something fast, I wanna respond to that guy or gal (yes, many women play great jazz. where are they on the forum) with something that shows I listened to him or her, not a lick that I practiced till I was blue in the face.

I think that's why I ear train so much. It's all about making that sound together, making something new together, and listening, otherwise it's... well... masturbation?

[destinytot]

(Leaving aside the question of the true identity of the self/Self one purports to express,) I think it's important to see beyond copying/imitation.

If one doesn't apply what one gathers and stores, perhaps mixing it up a little (as takes one's fancy), those good ideas go bad. (The German noun Gift says as much to me.)

[mrcee]

Licks are part of it but not the whole deal. Obviously. And maybe not for everybody.
It's like you can't learn a foreign language from a dictionary alone. I was guilty of it a bit at first as are a lot of people who are approaching it in a haphazard manner in order to survive in a foreign culture. But you do need a dictionary if you're going to learn a foreign language. Maybe not a perfect analogy but "close enough for jazz"
as a rock musician once said.

[henryrobinett]

Mark - I'm not at all upset. Just it irks me when all people are interested in is sounding like Pass or Metheny or Ellis or want to pick like Benson or give me or anyone else a bad time when they say they've never learned licks. I don't care what you or anyone else does. But don't use Wes or whoever as PROOF of anything. That doesn't mean jack to me. And no you're wrong. I listen to guitar players and sometimes I just hear a bunch of licks. Often I hear musicians who are desperate to sound like x, or z. Guys who try to get the same amp, guitars, effects, techniques. It's not just guitarists. Mingus used to complain about horn players who wouldn't know what to play until the next Bird record came out.

I'm talking about a whole different thing. And it comes from Mingus. Why would I WANT to play like someone else? Yes I am always me, but who knows what I sound like until I stop trying to sound like someone else? It's an adventure.

[Irez87]

Although, I have to admit that Greg Fishman has some great vocabulary books. I listen to them more than play them, and some of em seep in when the time is right. Forcing them never worked for me either.

[destinytot]

To improve my tai chi form, I spent countless hours watching cats. Then I went and bought some kitty litter.

[mr. beaumont]

I het more gigs not playing like "me"

[destinytot]

I het more gigs not playing like "me"

There's a Japanese guy touring and performing rock-steady reggae. I haven't heard him, but I'm told he sounds amazing - he sings and plays alone (with a looper) or with a band.

But what I find fascinating is that, apparently, he always performs in a tiger suit. Iconic stage persona.

[Patrick2]

I het more gigs not playing like "me"

Great!! Levity that makes sense. Can always count on you for something like this. But, your point is well taken and spot on. Too many people, IMO, believe that in order to be a spontaneously creative artist, that they need to get so far away from things the masters before them did . . . that what they usually wind up with looks or sounds like shit.

Jazz has been around way to long and has been explored by way too many phenomenal musicians . . (creative artists) . . . for anyone to now come along and create something entirely new and different and have it be pleasing to the ear of the common listener. Most anything that anyone does in jazz improvisation these days is gonna sound like something the astute listener has heard before. Unless of course, it's that far out nonesense that people are now trying to pass off as jazz. The challenge is to try to create something new, that's acceptable as musical. Not many, if any, can do that without showing some signs of where they got it from.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, truth is, "me" is pretty noisy and wouldn't be a big draw. u like the fringes as well as the middle.

The other thing is, amd maybe some of the best advice I ever got, was to stop trying so hard to be original. Just be you, and don't try to be somebody else. So yeah, I might don a different hat (literally) for this Saturday's country gig. But I'm still me, really.

Unless I'm doing the tribute act

[destinytot]

Wearing a mask can be a way of reaching deep levels of self-expression. And not just as a therapeutic tool. Playful speculation can be a creative act. Asking "What would x do?" can elicit interesting choices and abstractions.

[destinytot]

Unless I'm doing the tribute act

Ah, but can you do this?

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=destinytot;553764]Wearing a mask can be a way of reaching deep levels of self-expression. And not just as a therapeutic tool. Playful speculation can be a creative act.

Asking "What would x do?" can elicit interesting choices and abstractions.

Excellent point.

[fumblefingers]

To improve my tai chi form, I spent countless hours watching cats. Then I went and bought some kitty litter.

are you sure you're not Cosmic Gumbo?

[Stevebol]

I get more gigs being a transvestite for the yakuza. No funny business though. It's all about the music.

[fumblefingers]

Some people think of jazz, guitar, music, writing, painting as SELF EXPRESSION. It's creative. Nothing wrong with learning from the masters, but at a certain point you've got to put your big boy pants on. The notion that one MUST do it like X or try and PLAY like X, Y or Z just never made sense to me. And I know I'm way in the minority here, but GOD DAMMIT it just seems that some people miss the entire point.

Personally I've never been interested in playing like ANYBODY. But that doesn't sit right with some people. Licks are crucial for getting vocabulary together. Solos are studied to understand the language. But if the goal is to delve into the depths of SELF and draw musical portraits of the inner world of Me, why would I want to wear someone else's underwear? It's a little like memorizing a bunch of sentences so you can fool others into thinking you know what you're talking about WHEN YOU DON'T. I'll memorize these speeches and pull them out when I need to impress someone. Then over time I'll get my own language together. Well that's great. It's a tried and true method.

But what if someone has enough gumption, or ability or balls to do it differently? It pisses people off. If the goal is to play YOU don't play someone else, even if it stinks.

But that's too often not the goal. Too many people want to play LIKE someone else. That's ok. But don't assume that I do. And that shouldn't piss anyone off. We can get proprietary and possessive about our heros, teachers methods. Sure it's harder to get work and define yourself when you don't sound like x,y or z. Ok. So? I've done ok.

Sorry for this rant. Every now and again this comes up for me. Back to your regular scheduled programming.

it seems to me that improv IS self expression, if it's really improvised. and when we improvise, we reveal ourselves. we reveal our ideas, our minds ear, our sense of harmony, melody, rhythm, feel, etc. we also reveal our chops, or lack thereof. ultimately we reveal our musical persona, warts and all. that's why its so easy to identify a famous player within a few bars - when you truly improvise, you can't hide yourself.

but i suppose the one caveat to that would be the player who does his damndest to ape another player.

i differ with you in that i believe people DO want to hear fresh voices - if they're good. on the other hand - and to your point - if they stink, nobody cares, nor should they.

[henryrobinett]

For me it had nothing to do with trying to be original. It has to do with tapping into me, unadulterated. I have no concerns with originality. I just don't want to SOUND like another guitarist. Big difference. The language if jazz is huge. I don't want to start a new style. That's not what it's about.