Jazz as a medium of self expression

destinytot · 07-30-2015, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

are you sure you're not Cosmic Gumbo?

Am I sure? Well, no - and I think that's germane.

destinytot · 07-30-2015, 01:12 AM

Self-expression is negative freedom. The kind that can't be granted except by self. (A good thing, despite connotations of the word 'negative'.)

**henryrobinett** · 07-30-2015, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

i differ with you in that i believe people DO want to hear fresh voices - if they're good. on the other hand - and to your point - if they stink, nobody cares, nor should they.

Yeah but I'm not concerned with what I think people WANT to hear. That's completely besides the point.

**Jonah** · 07-30-2015, 03:15 AM

For me it's like murmur or a noise or sometimes even sensible visual (I am not crazy))))
I always had this... I just wanted it to be pronounced..

As once I read in a poem:

Being short-sighted I trusted only my nose even then...
and could trace another one by the smell...
and like a dog I barked at any accidental gesture...

That's just that simple for me ...
I try to be attentive and let these inner things happen and 'bark' whenever I feel it... no more, no less..

**henryrobinett** · 07-30-2015, 11:26 AM

I've always heard the guitar in my mind. I remember clearly playing guitar in my mind in the 8th grade. THAT'S what I wanted to get to.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-30-2015, 12:22 PM

I think all the guitar playing i did in my mind back in 8th grade got me into--and kept me out of--a lot of trouble

**grahambop** · 07-30-2015, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

There's a Japanese guy touring and performing rock-steady reggae. I haven't heard him, but I'm told he sounds amazing - he sings and plays alone (with a looper) or with a band.

But what I find fascinating is that, apparently, he always performs in a tiger suit. Iconic stage persona.

That's ok until you get a dentist from Minnesota in the audience.

**cosmic gumbo** · 07-30-2015, 05:04 PM

I'm all about the goal of exploring and developing your own unique personal voice, but I don't buy into the idea that an artist can have a voice that isn't somewhat informed by his influences.

I accept that I can't avoid subconsciously absorbing parts of the language that speak to me. I also accept that this is part of the jazz tradition.

Even the giants like Bird, Trane, Miles, etc., knew their personal voices included language from a lineage that included Armstrong, Young, Hawkins....like they say, we stand on the shoulders of giants...to not acknowledge that is somewhat ignorant.

**henryrobinett** · 07-30-2015, 05:09 PM

Yeah, well I'm not saying to not be influences. I definitely have my influences. But I haven't transcribed them and copied them purposefully. I never had the desire to sound like x, or z. But Metheny or Scofield do come out in my playing, just by osmosis.

**henryrobinett** · 07-30-2015, 05:15 PM

Let me see if I can better articulate this. I'm not TRYING to not sound like anybody. I really don't care if I DO sound like someone else. I'm just not going to TRY and sound like anybody. And it's not because I don't greatly admire everybody. For me, that's not the point of why I play jazz.

**jordanklemons** · 07-30-2015, 05:55 PM

Here's my advice.

If you don't want to actively try and sound like anyone else. Cool. I've been running a blog for the last 4-5 years that's based on helping others think outside the norm to help them cultivate that level of intimacy and passion within themselves. I get it.

But so what? There's really nothing that special or unique about it. You just do it. If others don't like it..do it anyways.

If your audience members don't like it, thank them for coming and don't expect to see them at another show again.

If a musician you work with doesn't like it...stop playing with them.

If it's a particular forum member, then speak up for who it is and have an honest conversation with them publicly or privately. Or if they're being unnecessarily aggressive and judgmental, contact a moderator and report them. Or go to their profile, hit the ignore button, and move on.

Otherwise, it just sounds like you're yelling at nobody for no reason.

Regardless of what Mingus told you, there's no right way, and everyone is going to approach this stuff differently and from the way that it feels right for them.

You do your thing, I do mine, others do theirs. It really is that simple, isn't it?

**mr. beaumont** · 07-30-2015, 06:00 PM

I dunno, I think I get what you're saying exactly.

When i was a kid, i liked jerry garcia soooo much i could pull off a believable impersonation of jerry (well, jerry on a bad night, but...)

Point being, i WAS trying to sound like my idol. But i grew out of that. So then it came about that i got into jazz, and i was so nervous about falling into that again i was trying to create in a vaccuum, intentionally not copying anybody. And i sucked because of it.

But i didn't suck because i didn't copy. I only sucked because i was inexperienced and was trying to be "original" and didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground.

Over time, i lightened up. I transcribed, i listened...i have some licks...i also see how someone can come to the music and not concern themselves with licks at all...licks are "micro," little cells of information...there's a macro view too...concepts...like i might learn a concept, an idea for handling a situation, by listening to Charlie Parker. Maybe i can't play exactly what he did, but i can credit an idea as opposed to a "lick."

I have players who influence/inspire me greatly, but i don't sound like them. I have others i've taken ifeas directly from...others who leak in via osmosis. It's all me. Even the jerry garcia licks that still come out.

**christianm77** · 07-30-2015, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Some people think of jazz, guitar, music, writing, painting as SELF EXPRESSION. It's creative. Nothing wrong with learning from the masters, but at a certain point you've got to put your big boy pants on. The notion that one MUST do it like X or try and PLAY like X, Y or Z just never made sense to me. And I know I'm way in the minority here, but GOD DAMMIT it just seems that some people miss the entire point.

Personally I've never been interested in playing like ANYBODY. But that doesn't sit right with some people. Licks are crucial for getting vocabulary together. Solos are studied to understand the language. But if the goal is to delve into the depths of SELF and draw musical portraits of the inner world of Me, why would I want to wear someone else's underwear? It's a little like memorizing a bunch of sentences so you can fool others into thinking you know what you're talking about WHEN YOU DON'T. I'll memorize these speeches and pull them out when I need to impress someone. Then over time I'll get my own language together. Well that's great. It's a tried and true method.

But what if someone has enough gumption, or ability or balls to do it differently? It pisses people off. If the goal is to play YOU don't play someone else, even if it stinks.

But that's too often not the goal. Too many people want to play LIKE someone else. That's ok. But don't assume that I do. And that shouldn't piss anyone off. We can get proprietary and possessive about our heros, teachers methods. Sure it's harder to get work and define yourself when you don't sound like x,y or z. Ok. So? I've done ok.

Sorry for this rant. Every now and again this comes up for me. Back to your regular scheduled programming.

I hear you. I have no desire to play like anyone else. But I did spend an hour or two today trying to sound more like Bill Frissell (I just got a Telecaster, seemed like the thing to do) - not because that's what I want to do, but just to widen my ears and technique. Copying a player is a great exercise - not an end in itself.

And it goes without saying that many of the greats started copying a specific player. But they knew when it was time to move on.

EDIT: Oh and I think that extracting bleeding chunks of 'language' from solos (ii-V-I licks etc) and trying to get them into your playing can be fun, but that's not real music. Real influence is deeper than that. Real language is created in the moment, and so much of music is about the way something is played, rather than just what notes are chosen.

In the case Frissell that's really clear because with him it's really not 'lines' or 'language' in the same way as it could seem with, say, Wes - it's more about touch, time and tone. Which it is with Wes as well of course...

destinytot · 07-30-2015, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

EDIT: Oh and I think that extracting bleeding chunks of 'language' from solos (ii-V-I licks etc) and trying to get them into your playing can be fun, but that's not real music. Real influence is deeper than that. Real language is created in the moment, and so much of music is about the way something is played, rather than just what notes are chosen.

In the case Frissell that's really clear because with him it's really not 'lines' or 'language' in the same way as it could seem with, say, Wes - it's more about touch, time and tone. Which it is with Wes as well of course...

I think there's a level on which the experience of "real music" is inevitably a personal one (for some people, that would be an inevitably sacred or spiritual one), whereas "chunks of 'language' from solos" are, of necessity, communicative - which infers interaction.

And therein lies the beauty of language and lines, a function of interplay between one's intention and others' perception. I'm glad we agree that it's fun to try to get them into one's playing, but the above comment seems unfairly dismissive of a perfectly valid - if long - road to self-expression.

Other routes exist, but studying what 'speaks' to me works just fine.

**henryrobinett** · 07-30-2015, 08:20 PM

Jordan - I'm not looking for any advice. But thanks.

I am, however, giving advice for anyone who wants it. After a time the student needs to stop trying to emulate his or her hero's. I've always felt art exists from within. Some people, like myself, decided to look within rather than from without. It's harder, but it seems to work and it's far more deeply personal.

And I've been pretty successful. Around here my name does have a draw. People do come to hear me and appreciate my playing. So I must assume I am on to something. But if no one liked my playing that wouldn't change anything. I believe the art of improvisation, the way I do it, is the art of self exploration.

I'm not telling anyone else how to do it. Not by a long shot. And I'm not upset. But I've been playing for many, many years. And through the years I've run into to people who disagree with my approach. This particular rant was inspired by another thread on the playing of licks. I, and a few others, said I (we) don't play licks and that I NEVER have learned a lick. Where upon another poster indicated how ridiculous that was since many great jazz musicians had. And you know, I don't care what other musicians did or didn't do. But there's a difference between students and professionals in terms of application or even the use of this forum. Overwhelmingly I'm not interested in learning from this forum. I am interested in helping and providing guidance for anyone who's interested in listening.

**jordanklemons** · 07-30-2015, 09:25 PM

Ok. That's fine.

Since you're not interested in my advice - or in learning anything from anyone on this forum - I ask you to stop reading this post now as the rest of it is not meant for you.

For Henry
___________________________________

Not for Henry

This short story goes out to anyone else reading that IS interested in learning and remaining open and having a two-way dialogue rather than a one-way "this is what you need to do" conversation. Or at least is on the fence. Maybe you've been more on the closed off side and are thinking about opening up. Or have been open, but have a voice in you telling you you're good enough now to close off the two-way radio and figure the rest out yourself.

I'm not a big name dropper...so no names here. But I have been fortunate enough to perform, record, and study with some amazing musicians. Like crazy amazing...big names. I went out to lunch with a guy once. One of my musical heroes that I grew up listening to and playing along with his records. He used to play in Miles' group. That's about as much of an identifying characteristic as I'm going to say.

We went to get thai food after a morning session. We're sitting there talking about jazz. The manager came to fill up our waters and said, "Excuse me guys, I couldn't help but overhear you talking about jazz. I'm sorry to eavesdrop and interrupt, but I love jazz! Are you musicians or just students and fans of the music?"

My jaw dropped. He doesn't recognize Mr. X?!?!? The guy played with Miles!!!! I was speechless. But X just looked up kindly and responded, "Oh you know, a little bit of both man. You know, we play...but we're really just students and fans of the music. We love jazz too!"

X then proceeded to ask the restaurant manager about who his favorite artists were, and his favorite albums and venues. They talked about shows they'd both been to 30 years ago where their paths crossed without them ever realizing it.

And the entire time, I just sat there in silent awe thinking..."How can X not just say who he is? And tell him all the guys he's played with?!?!"

But he never said anything about it. He just talked to him and was completely open to learning from this guy and getting advice about albums to check out and the like.

It was one of the most humbling moments of my life. I still think about that lunch every time my ego starts to get even the slightest bit out of line. A reminder I give myself that everyone can teach me something if I'm open to it...and that I'm never too good, too unique, too talented, or too big a name to learn new things about my music from others.

Neither approach is right or wrong. We can either remain open and remember that we have the potential to learn great and wonderful new ideas from others, or we can shut that down and decide we don't need or want that. Both are valid approaches. It's just up to each of us to decide what feels the most congruent with ourselves. For me, I'm obviously in the former category. At least I try to be as much as possible. I feel that my ego and the thought, "I already know that," are the two biggest stumbling blocks to my continued progress.

**NSJ** · 07-30-2015, 09:39 PM

I think that the OP asks some implicit questions of everyone: what is one's goal in music--what makes them play and learn?

For myself, Having now been at it for a few thousand hours of the 10,000 required, I've learned a few things on how to progress further only by discovering my own personal approach to music. What does it mean to be you when playing music ? I mean, these things are pretty basic when you get down to it.

1. Play in the style or manner that truly excites you, and develop the technique required to do that. For me now that means playing or attempting to play pianistically via finger style.

2. If I hear something I like--usually a simple thing, I don't try to copy it but rather steal it and make it my own, incorporating it in the style referenced above in various ways .

3. Having spent a lot of time trying to figure out the fingerboard, notes, intervals, chords, progressions--The one thing I need to always have is an arsenal of rhythms always ready . For me, ideas come from rhythms, not licks Or chord scales. Notes don't matter as much, rhythms are paramount. For me ideas come from rhythms not chord scales And such. Playing the wrong note? Big deal. Just Move it up a half step.

4. Having recognize the primacy of rhythm, but also knowing that this is my biggest weakness, I decided to do something about it . This guy I knew as a kid whom I grew up with is a professional drummer and tabla player. He studied with the very best, from Zakir Hussain to Ravi Shankar's tabla player. Art Blakey was his inspiration to pick up drums. So I'm going to take a bunch of lessons and learn everything I need to know about syncopation.

After learning all this I will hopefully incorporate it into what I enjoy playing. Otherwise, what's the point ?

**mr. beaumont** · 07-30-2015, 09:49 PM

I play music to hear the stuff i hear in my head "out loud.". That's enough really, for me. I could take away the teaching, the gigs that pay well, the gigs that don't, and that'd still be enough.

**henryrobinett** · 07-30-2015, 10:19 PM

Yes. I play the stuff I hear in my head. I think this should be natural. What I hear seems to be a combination of Dexter Gordon, Chick Corea, Jarrett, Coltrane etc. since those are the people I've spent the most of my time listening to. I've done a few transcriptions to understand what's going on. But basically I've mapped the fretboard and played tunes. Since I studied with Mingus and others and played with some great players it seemed to work. Mingus had a whole different approach to harmony which I've never really seen anyone else use or know anything about. I guess this further convinced me there's no single method. And since with him, Dexter and Rollins, people I knew through my Mingus association, I was one degree separated from Bird in lives, not in playing! But they were all kind and helpful. They approached learning this music totally unlike students do today.

I don't like the way students learn it today.

**pamosmusic** · 07-30-2015, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Mingus had a whole different approach to harmony which I've never really seen anyone else use or know anything about.

Could you elaborate on this?

**henryrobinett** · 07-31-2015, 12:24 AM

He had me do crazy arpeggios exercises. They went way beyond the 13th. So with some Mingus and Duke music you can find dominant chords with major 7ths. He'd call them # 14 or justify b9 and #9 in the same chord as b16 and b17.

He and Dolphy studied with composer Lloyd Reese. I believe that's where this system comes from. I was with Mingus and Jimmy Knepper when they were going over Mingus charts that had symbols including large symbols like these.

**cosmic gumbo** · 07-31-2015, 01:33 AM

I was lucky to have it instilled in me early on that learning to formulate and apply your own concepts to jazz rhythm and harmony was historically the norm for most jazz musicians prior to the academization of jazz.

Now, the academic cookie cutter method of providing a set of theoretic musical templates that must be absorbed has led too many to consider there is actually some universal method and keeps people from embracing a personal codex which leads to creating a unique voice.

**henryrobinett** · 07-31-2015, 01:38 AM

Yes! Well said cosmic!

**Jonah** · 07-31-2015, 02:47 AM

I just don't feel it's about the goals... for me at least... it's more like an instinct...

Btw... I've never been interested in novelty.. I mean never thought about it as of concept or approach...
and when someone says that 'one has to say something new in arts' -

I always say that 'a goal to be new sounds a bit pretencious for me'...

besides just think every single person is unique... so just being yourself will make it new...

**mhch** · 07-31-2015, 04:53 AM

Well most famous painters spent years copying others before coming up with their own style, Rembrandt and even Picasso did so.

Picasso's father was also a painter and Picasso first paintings are cows and other domestic animals which can be seen in Lisboa. Not fantastic. One point though, he was no more than a few year old when doing so and very quickly became so evidently good that his father stopped his painting practice !!

I guess the key point may not be to copy or not copy licks but instead to practice them initially as an education process, until sufficient material has been deeply absorbed and music phrases can be created without much thinking.