Everyone can play jazz - yes or no?

**pingu** · 06-17-2015, 08:47 AM

i think if you want to do something
.... a lot
you will do it

i mean in the arts anyway ....

John Lee Hooker is a great guitarist
i mean at one level thats just not true ...

at another level he's glorious , fantastic
happening baby
and nobody can play like that !

you shouldn't use dna as an excuse to not play

**Al Br.** · 06-18-2015, 07:06 AM

Can I play Jazz? no not really,
Do I stop trying? no not really
Do I feel bad about making the noise which is a result of me trying to play/learn jazz? no not really

can I play jazz? who cares, I'm having a blast trying.

**kris** · 06-18-2015, 11:47 AM

Rythm,harmony,melody,improvisation-it is easy.

**John Tom** · 06-18-2015, 04:54 PM

I think it may be a bit like joke telling - anyone can have a go, practise, get better - but some people just seem to have it in them.
Horse goes into bar with a long face - barman says hey what's up.

**pingu** · 06-18-2015, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by John Tom

I think it may be a bit like joke telling - anyone can have a go, practise, get better - but some people just seem to have it in them.
Horse goes into bar with a long face - barman says hey what's up.

horse says "my wifes an absolute mare"

**princeplanet** · 06-19-2015, 08:10 AM

Hey, can someone please offer a description of what they consider to be "playing jazz well"... Is it the number of tunes? Comping skills? (If so, what is expected there?) Or from soloing? Vocab? Originality? At what point do you separate the hacks from the "good" players, and then the "great players", and while we're at it, the "jazz superstars" ??

**kris** · 06-19-2015, 08:25 AM

" play something ...I will tell you. Are you good or not"...This said to me one fameous sax player. and he add " you can talk all night about playing but just play something"...:-)

**mrcee** · 06-19-2015, 09:34 AM

Can anyone learn to play Jazz? Yes if they work at it. Learn to play well? No.
What is musical talent? Assuming the person has the physical ability to play the instrument. A love of music helps.
A good sense of rhythm and pitch is an asset, plus a lot of intangibles, but IMO most important is to be a good listener.
If you can't, won't or don't listen, you're done.

**kris** · 06-20-2015, 11:16 AM

pracise and learn for masters...this is a key.

**princeplanet** · 06-22-2015, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Hey, can someone please offer a description of what they consider to be "playing jazz well"... Is it the number of tunes? Comping skills? (If so, what is expected there?) Or from soloing? Vocab? Originality? At what point do you separate the hacks from the "good" players, and then the "great players", and while we're at it, the "jazz superstars" ??

Everyone seems to be saying that most can learn to play in a jazz style more or less, but not all are capable of playing "well". Fine, I think we all get it and most probably agree. But again, I'd like some attempts at defining just what "playing well" entails in your opinions. Surely it's not an abstract question. If you were holding auditions to find (for whatever reason) Jazz guitarists that could play well (not reading well), what would you look for?

**Jonah** · 06-22-2015, 05:05 AM

If you were holding auditions to find (for whatever reason) Jazz guitarists that could play well (not reading well), what would you look for?

it depends... for a big band or some mixed bands (where they have complete symphonic orchestra but also drummers,electric bass and guitar) they usually look for a pro who can be 'nobody' - I mean playing in any style, imitate with any approach but in too much personal way.. he is expected to be able to play traditional swing, bop, latin comping, and also rock/pop and soloing of course (which most probably he will have to read).

I telling this because there's long ago some idea of 'jazz music' which identifis often not real jazz but arrangement in jazz style imitating harmonic rythmic qualities of jazz music of the period but missing the most important essential features: improvization and individual approach...

So since jazz has been quite long establich - probably almost anyone can master the language through excercise..

the next question will be: does he have something important and interesting to say in this language? If he does he will sound fresh and new even if uses old vocabulary.... becasue it is new person that makes things new.

Jazz players are being often compared with classical players.. which is wrong..
if we want to compare fairly we should compare with composers... this comparosn is also good for jazz players...
we often say that jazz player takes much more risks than pen composer who can revise and check the score...

But this risk is there only if jazz player takes all the creative responsibility to the same extent as the pen composer does... (which to be fair is not always like this)

**princeplanet** · 06-22-2015, 08:27 AM

Yes, but what is the difference between "adequate", and "good"? Sometimes guys who are reasonably adept at many styles and all the facets of improv are "jack of all trades - master of none".

For me , some of the things I look for are: imagination, invention, facility (technique etc) and originality. I'd also look for a good grounding in Bop language that has been personalized somehow to show a point of difference. Harmonic sophistication may not necessarily be a component, nor would I expect any mastery of modern concepts. However, things like phrasing, good time and "swinging" however I'd list as mandatory in order to be considered a "good" player.

In fact, the more I think of it, players with good ears end up as good players if they put the requisite hours in. If they can "hear" it, it can be expressed via fingers with enough "trial and error" time. Players who don't have the gift of a good ear usually can only hope to be adequate. Not that there's anything wrong with that....

**Reg** · 06-22-2015, 11:02 AM

So I really dig this conversation... it's what most guitarist, most musicians miss, or don't get.

So personally it's not just being able to play Jazz tunes... I mean when you become a jazz musician.... any tune can become a jazz version of a tune. I've posted on this forum for as long as I've been around... there are very physical aspects of music that jazz uses.... and what usually needs to happen is the musician needs to become aware of what those aspects are and incorporate them into their playing and hearing abilities.

So sure almost any musician can play jazz tunes...as long as they have the basic required skills,. but playing them in a jazz style at the speed of Jazz... now the list begins to get shorter.

I'll skip the details of performance requirement... you need high level of musicianship.

So as with almost anything the edges are gray as to when you can cover or cover well. And I'm not saying performing jazz tunes in a non jazz style is bad or wrong etc... it's still very cool. But like I said playing jazz is not being able to play jazz tunes.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-22-2015, 11:29 AM

I've avoided this conversation a bit because I have really strong feelings on it that probably won't make me any friends, but since Reg talked about playing "in a jazz style," I wanted to raise a question that would hopefully make a lot of things about the gray clearer...

So, what is "playing in a jazz style?"

I have my opinions, but maybe I'll hold off on them and see what other folks think first before asserting them.

**kris** · 06-22-2015, 11:36 AM

jazz style- I mean: be - bop, swing,modal,latin etc...

**grahambop** · 06-22-2015, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

For me , some of the things I look for are: imagination, invention, facility (technique etc) and originality. I'd also look for a good grounding in Bop language that has been personalized somehow to show a point of difference. Harmonic sophistication may not necessarily be a component, nor would I expect any mastery of modern concepts. However, things like phrasing, good time and "swinging" however I'd list as mandatory in order to be considered a "good" player.

This is a good summation of what I would look for. Also it covers very much the aspects I try to work on in my own playing.

**princeplanet** · 06-22-2015, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I've avoided this conversation a bit because I have really strong feelings on it that probably won't make me any friends, but since Reg talked about playing "in a jazz style," I wanted to raise a question that would hopefully make a lot of things about the gray clearer...So, what is "playing in a jazz style?"I have my opinions, but maybe I'll hold off on them and see what other folks think first before asserting them.

When Reg writes "in a Jazz style"- I always took it to mean "approximating" jazz but without the depth to be a real jazz musician. Will be interesting to see his reply. It would not be the first, nor the last "Regism" I would have misconstrued....

**pushkar000** · 06-22-2015, 12:09 PM

I consider this jazz :

This is not jazz :

Blues, swing, sycopation, improvisation based on a given theme, certain melodic sense, stems from a particular lineage of musicians and their work...if a musician understands deeply in his/her head, ears and heart all of the above, and then makes the music he or she believes to be that which is truest and closest to their spirit, it will be called jazz.

**Reg** · 06-22-2015, 01:31 PM

Again... IMHO or something like that. The whole feeling thing and emotions... very cool etc... but basically only happens after you can play in a jazz style... so long story short... it's all BS. The only reason feelings and emotions come into the equation is your personal BS, and we all have way too much.

We tend to use the jazz language or style of performance... whatever we want to call it... as personal....

memorizing a great jazz performance and performing it live is great... but hardly playing jazz.

It's pretty simple really... you need performance skill of using...

(Yea you need good old maj/min functional harmonic concepts, basic western european CPP functional understanding)
that's a basic requirement to get that classic vanilla sound.

You need to use and understand Modal Concepts with relationship to tonality.
You need to use and understand Modal Interchange...(not just from borrowing approach)
You need to use and understand Melodic Minor and it's relationships
You need to understand Blue Notes and how they create relationships with harmony
there are other performance details, rhythmic and phrasing concepts etc... all related to performance skills.

And then playing live with possibilities etc...

then of course you need to have the three "S's"...struggle, suffrage and have made great sacrifices, having very deep emotional problems... and not have much $ also helps.

Then you need the look.... right, which exemplified all of the above with just a glance.

**Jonah** · 06-22-2015, 02:42 PM

There are two types of teachers: some say .. forget these crap .. feelings.. ideas .. work this through first then let's see what ideas you have..

what's good - if the student is self-confident enough he can really learn quickly some techical stuff from such a teacher on high level even he is not much talanted naturally
what's bad - these teachers can bring student to the point that they would forget that it all was actually about feeling and end up polishing their craft forever waiting when it will be ready for feelings....

Another type of teacher cares about bringing out musical ideas and feelings from student first and let technical issues follow it...

what's good about them - they can really lead a student very personally and can really teach to be really musical - not to fake musicality...

what's bad - they will probably lose those students that are not sensitive and gifted enough naturally

**Reg** · 06-22-2015, 07:37 PM

Hey Jonah...

Maybe... I don't know... but I don't think of feelings as ideas. Feelings are more related to emotional logic, from the heart... can change at any moment. I think of ideas as more knowledge based. At least for this discussion.

So I'm also thinking and relating to "jazz", in reference to us as musicians... wanting to be able to perform jazz. What it takes to be able to perform jazz. Not just what is Jazz.

And I'm not talking about how to teach students how to become aware of what makes one able to perform in a jazz style, not talking about the personal learning concepts.

So what is... being really musical... and what is... faking musicality. Is that a perceptional issue.

I'm just talking about what aspects and characteristics of music... somewhat technically, subjects that are very definable,

..create jazz performance skills. Being able to play Jazz... not just memorized performance of notated music etc...

I believe emotions and feelings... are a very important aspect of performance, but more in the direction of relating to audiences or influencing the concentration and focus aspects of creating a performance.... not the technical structure of the music being performed. And jazz being more of a performance orientated style of music, as compared to notated tradition, feelings are not enough if you haven't created instinctive elements or components of what "organized sound in time", creates jazz.

If you were to teach someone to play the piano, would you give him or her trumpet technique lessons. If you were teaching someone to compose in Baroque style would you teach them serial or twelve tone harmony.

I just don't believe it's that complicated, save the really musical, faking or emotional and feeling skills for later.

**Reg** · 06-22-2015, 07:41 PM

Jonah... please don't take my personal views as being targeted at you.... not my intension, sorry. You comments, just help me think about the subject... There meant to be in general, addressing your comments. directed toward everyone. Again sorry.

**Jonah** · 06-23-2015, 07:12 AM

Hi Reg

I just wanted to show two different perspectives... you have a great authority on this forum and I just wanted to show maybe that we can look at it from a bit different angle.. though I will never have experience and skills you have of course in jazz playing and I do not pretend to have

I know students who were told: before you play music you should learn this and that... and they stuck in this 'before'... they became pros, some even 'stars' and they learnt to do anything but playing music... they are still before playing music - forever...

On the other hand last Saturday I was on lute recital... it was terrible... very nice musical guy who can hardly play.. obviously he did not have a person around who would tell him directly that he should learn the basics... or probably he finds the way to avoid such persons ...I cannot understand frankly how people feel to come out to play in public solo concerts at such a technical level... it's like he can hardly speak.. and tries to recite complex poetry or philosophy...

Besides regarding jazz it's a bit more tricky than with baroque composition... in baroque they had those days the same theory mopre or less... and in jazz theoretic approaches came later... your list represnts more the requirements for a pro player to meet employer's expectations perfectly than just 'playing jazz' - imho...

It was not towards you.. I am an adult person and I just try to put away emotions in these cases - I knew immediately that I could learn a lot from your posts so even when I do not understand or disagree I come back to your practical posts and go through.. usually they are very useful because they show the concept very practically and I can develop it later myself...
I am sure that I would not know those things that fast without your help..
On the other hand it is still a forum not a college - so we are all here - pros amateurs, smart or not, gifted or not - we're all here to keep conversation mostly....

We're in open discussion - so however great authority is it should be backed up with arguments - it's not enough just to say: you don't understand and I dig it.. even if it is really so...

**Hyppolyte Bergamotte** · 06-23-2015, 07:54 AM

25 years ,3 teachers +countless hours of work for me , before my wife said "you begin to play correctly"

HB

**Reg** · 06-23-2015, 08:59 AM

Hey Jonah

Thanks... and I learn from your posts, and opinions. I'm nobody... but I do have 45 or so years of performing and studying jazz....

really all I'm trying to do is push guitarist and try and get them out of this middle ground... a little of this, a little that, throw in some of this...etc... most of the great jazz players that I've had the chance to perform with... don't play by chance, they have opinions of what jazz is... they make choices.

I don't believe I know that much or have the right answers or opinions.... But I have them and can explain them with musical language and and reflect them in my performance. I make choices, and obviously make mistakes... thank you as always for your choices.... Reg