Everyone can play jazz - yes or no?

**kris** · 05-23-2015, 01:29 PM

What can I say about musician who tried to play and learn jazz and after few years I/ve heard from him : I like jazz but do not feel it.

**pkirk** · 05-23-2015, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by kris

it is easier to learn play jazz if you really love jazz music.

It is not possible to learn to play jazz if you do not really love jazz music.

**henryrobinett** · 05-23-2015, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by kris

What can I say about musician who tried to play and learn jazz and after few years I/ve heard from him : I like jazz but do not feel it.

He doesn't yet understand it. It still doesn't mean he couldn't.

**kris** · 05-23-2015, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

He doesn't yet understand it. It still doesn't mean he couldn't.

Maybe....
I wonder why....?
There are a lot of edu videos on youtube.A lot of great lessons.

**fumblefingers** · 05-23-2015, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

No one asked whether one could play or write well. That was not a question I heard or responded to. But I also don't think talent necessarily is the determining factor there either. Maybe it is. But hard work is. And one needs to work beyond the mere instrumental work. One needs to read books, walk through museums, forests, mountains, have monumental love affairs. One needs to experience life and envision it in works of art.

forests, mountains, and monumental love affairs, eh? lol. well that sounds pretty good.

and then there's Joey Alexander. and Andreas Varady.

**Stevebol** · 05-23-2015, 02:35 PM

I can prove that not everyone can play jazz. All I have to do is try to play it.

**pushkar000** · 05-23-2015, 02:47 PM

Yeah, anybody can play jazz or compose or really do mostly anything. Life may not always allow for it, but given the appropriate resources and conditions, yeah, anybody can play jazz.

I don't agree with the notion of talent. Could anybody who does please define what musical talent is? Is it a gene? Is it a real, verifiable strand of homo sapien DNA that directs our body cells in some way to be capable of great art? And if so, how does it manifest?

Edit : Since genetics governs our physical bodies, there may be talent in physical terms. I have previously read on this forum itself that "not all hands are born equal" in the context of long stretches on the fretboard. This is not at dispute.
Secondly, great music and musicians are born of a million different factors and some of them may indeed be connected to the circumstances of one's birth or upbringing and much like talent, are unchangeable factors that the person must deal with.
But out of those million, is there a single factor that is genetically based?

Lionel Messi was 11 when his coach told him he'd never be a football player...Parker was 17 when he got laughed off the bandstand...

**henryrobinett** · 05-23-2015, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by kris

Maybe....
I wonder why....?
There are a lot of edu videos on youtube.A lot of great lessons.

Who knows why? That's where great teachers come in. There's so much to learn and so few great teachers. YouTube. I'm sorry. That can be a very bad teacher. But maybe I'm just saying that because I learned prior to the YouTube age.

**grahambop** · 05-23-2015, 04:43 PM

Well I know that I have no 'talent', but after many years I think I have managed to reach a point of being able to play jazz a bit. So it should be possible, for anyone who has the persistence to learn a musical instrument.

But you've got to love the music so much that you will never give up trying no matter how hopeless it seems.

Do these musicians listen to jazz for hours a day? Do they immerse themselves in it? Do they know every recording their jazz heroes made? Do they have any jazz heroes? Do they read every book about them they can find? That's what you have to be like to make any progress, in my opinion.

**fumblefingers** · 05-23-2015, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by pushkar000

Yeah, anybody can play jazz or compose or really do mostly anything. Life may not always allow for it, but given the appropriate resources and conditions, yeah, anybody can play jazz.

I don't agree with the notion of talent. Could anybody who does please define what musical talent is? Is it a gene? Is it a real, verifiable strand of homo sapien DNA that directs our body cells in some way to be capable of great art? And if so, how does it manifest?

Edit : Since genetics governs our physical bodies, there may be talent in physical terms. I have previously read on this forum itself that "not all hands are born equal" in the context of long stretches on the fretboard. This is not at dispute.
Secondly, great music and musicians are born of a million different factors and some of them may indeed be connected to the circumstances of one's birth or upbringing and much like talent, are unchangeable factors that the person must deal with.
But out of those million, is there a single factor that is genetically based?

Lionel Messi was 11 when his coach told him he'd never be a football player...Parker was 17 when he got laughed off the bandstand...

Talent can be "ability" if you like. Haven't you ever noticed a group of people who started out in the same place and some fell far behind no matter how hard they tried, others fell in the middle, and a few rocketed ahead?

**pushkar000** · 05-23-2015, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

Talent can be "ability" if you like. Haven't you ever noticed a group of people who started out in the same place and some fell far behind no matter how hard they tried, others fell in the middle, and a few rocketed ahead?

In some things yes. In music no.
You can call it ability too, but the question is whether ability or a component of it is genetic.

**Frethack** · 05-23-2015, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by kris

it is easier to learn play jazz if you really love jazz music.

+1

I listened to it for years before I started to love it. I loved it for many years before ever trying to learn to play it. There is a comfort there that I cannot explain.

**jzucker** · 05-23-2015, 07:33 PM

anyone can be a pro basketball player

**pushkar000** · 05-23-2015, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

anyone can be a pro basketball player

In my first post I did mention physical talent.
I maintain that with appropriate resources and conditions, one can overcome a lack of talent or genetic fortune and become a sportsman - as in the case of Lionel Messi, who was told to give up football at age 11 - who then went on to become the greatest footballer of all time, surpassing many other players who may have been more blessed genetically.

**henryrobinett** · 05-23-2015, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

anyone can be a pro basketball player

No but anybody can play basketball. Not everyone can be a pro jazz guitarist either.

**wolflen** · 05-23-2015, 10:49 PM

for me its a mind set..not everyone can do it..I loved jazz since I was a kid..i used to watch Dr. Billy Taylor on TV breakdown some songs and progressions/melodic lines..I was hooked..It was years later that I picked up a guitar (hey if Bob Dylan can sing..i can play guitar) and I learned the basic 10 chords and some blues riffs..and began to meet some real "players"..now my hunger to learn more was born..there were few teachers that could show me what was in my head on guitar..then I found the mickey baker book..and I went through it and as he recommended-went through it again in ALL keys..this took the better part of two years..I now had enough confidence to play with other jazz players..then at some point I saw Larry Coryell..now this wasen't barney kessel who I could follow or even joe pass who I could follow a bit..this was something else..fast forward..I heard about ted greene..he was teaching in los angeles..I was in los angeles..I was on the waiting list..i studied with ted for two years..how anyone can know so much about music in one life time is beyond me..but I still review some of the lessons he gave me..

I have been told by other players "..you can play.." and its nice to hear..but it much like you save your money to buy a special new car..and someone says "nice car" I didn't save up to hear someone say that..but it nice to hear..

I practice every day..If im in bed and hear some musical thing I like on the radio..i will get up and try to capture it while its still in my head..no matter the time of night..when I watch TV I have the guitar handy .. commercial jingles/show themes (blue bloods is nice) my neighbor plays keyboards..some time we will trade licks through the wall..

I feel you have to "be music" in order to play it with dimension - feeling and ability to communicate that

not everyone is ready to dedicate their life to music -- my jazz heros--its their life..

**pubylakeg** · 05-23-2015, 11:09 PM

I'd like to say yes to the OP, and agree that anyone who wants to, could play Jazz....of a sort.

I think, at the heart of Jazz, there was originally a collective ideal, of the group being able to play freely, and without inhibition.

One of the things that was lost in the bebop era was the simple essence of group participation, but instead, a kind of elitism or exclusivity based on musical/instrumental technique, or other social factors, became prevalent. In addition, Jazz's ever evolving harmonic language, does require rigorous study.

Unfortunately, this has given Jazz a mystique, or reputation for complexity, which I feel does intimidate aspiring players, and to a larger extent, casual listeners.

In addition, I think many of us players, can develop a tendency to "over-think" the music.

So, by my standards, that old guy on youtube, playing along with an aebersold cd, using his thumb, and picking out some singable lines against a slow blues, is playing jazz.

He might not be on the cover of next months Downbeat magazine, but at the end of the day, that doesn't matter.

**eddy b.** · 05-23-2015, 11:24 PM

I've been thinking about this a lot today. I've taught many, many private lessons. Some are born with amazing dexterity/coordination their fingers move just a little faster, easier than others. Some are born into musical families and have a tremendous foundation of having heard quality masterworks since birth , and have seen music performed in the home since birth. Some have an inkling that the guitar is something they want to try. Very, very few commit themselves fully to the instrument, the lifestyle and the music. The ones that do this HAVE to. They aren't always the most naturally gifted, or come from great musical families but the BURNING desire, obsession and need to accomplish their goals and live their dream is what others will eventually call talent. Talent as it applies to music in my opinion is just another word for passion, all great art is born of it, without it there is no point.

**Badge** · 05-23-2015, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

Talent can be "ability" if you like. Haven't you ever noticed a group of people who started out in the same place and some fell far behind no matter how hard they tried, others fell in the middle, and a few rocketed ahead?

You are born with or without a talent. Ability can be learned. You don't actually need talent to have ability although it certainly helps

**kris** · 05-24-2015, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Who knows why? That's where great teachers come in. There's so much to learn and so few great teachers. YouTube. I'm sorry. That can be a very bad teacher. But maybe I'm just saying that because I learned prior to the YouTube age.

Bad teacher...:-) maybe also bad student...:-)
You think like there are bad teachers only and students are OK.
is everyone can be musician?
i do not think so.It is more complicated.

**henryrobinett** · 05-24-2015, 03:17 AM

Yes bad students, but really good teachers can often reach bad students. If the desire is there bad students can be taught and can be motivated.

destinytot · 05-24-2015, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by pushkar000

who was told to give up football at age 11

Homeschool.

**Hep To The Jive** · 05-24-2015, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by kris

Bad teacher...:-) maybe also bad student...:-)
You think like there are bad teachers only and students are OK.
is everyone can be musician?
i do not think so.It is more complicated.

Im a teacher, I teach guitar, rock bands, at a few music schools. Thats right, not everybody can be musician. I believe in talent. Its a basic minimum. Most people can be taught to play something, but it wouldnt make them musicians. Im probably a bad teacher. Im not going to motivate somebody if i dont see any interest coming from their end, like with a lot of kids. But I will at least try if i see there's potential. Otherwise its a waste of time. Of course I dont wanna get fired, so I never tell a student or their parents that kinda stuff. But sometimes I really feel I should.

TH · 05-24-2015, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Im a teacher, I teach guitar, rock bands, at a few music schools. Thats right, not everybody can be musician.

I teach guitar privately as well as in group situations. The reasons that some "get it" and some don't is myriad, and my approaches vary widely. Sometimes it's well into the realm of psychology, sometimes it's a matter of perspective.
I've seen students get it in a lesson, find a crucial connexion in our time together, and revert back to the state of ignorant bliss in the course of a week-often with the unwillingness to commit to the instrument enough to unlock the level beneath mechanical routine.
A conservative observation: Those who excelled loved the music before they met me; I merely tended that sprout. Those that held a fantasy were much trickier to finesse the reality of the craft from. If you love it, you do it.

An oblique question for you all, can anyone learn sign language?
Just curious

David