Whiplash the Movie

**drbhrb** · 03-04-2015, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by nick1994

There's hardly any improvisation in it. you don't see him jamming with other students. you don't see him playing standards. There's only mention of joe jones, buddy rich charlie parker and Louis Armstrong. That's it! you don't see him transcribe, you only see him practice once or twice and you really can't call getting frustrated and punching in his snare practice. He rarely went to any gigs, or played any gigs in the movie.

I've been in an ensemble at uni and if you weren't getting the changes or couldn't read the charts or couldn't play in time, you'd just get sent out. If you can't get it the first time, then you're not going to get it the second time. you need to go practice.

So for me, the movie wasn't about jazz.

It's not a jazz documentary. Entirely not the point.

It's a fantastic movie with jazz as the back drop which will only serve to pique people's interest in jazz that never thought about it before.

**drbhrb** · 03-04-2015, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by pushkar000

I do think that "jazzers take it too seriously"/"jazzers are their own worst enemy" points do have some merit, but on the other hand, I think the overall consensus is that jazz as we know is quite misrepresented in Whiplash. In other words this translates to : this movie does not give jazz the respect it deserves.

I'm not sure how someone is going to deny that in some way, jazz was not given due respect. Here are the 3 major devices used by the directors to portray jazz.

1) How fast the drummer can swing
2) Shiny brass instruments
3) Lots and lots of sheet music

As far as a portrayal of jazz goes, heavily on the shallow side.

As fans and supporters of jazz, I'd say its completely natural and healthy to a certain extent to take an "anti-whiplash" stance.

On the other hand, whiplash is a movie, it was a big bucks movie and to net in the general public who is not familiar with jazz, this was the best way to give them an impression of "jazz music" without turning them away. I don't think it would have sold the way it did if we had a tenor sax as the protagonist and 16th note bop runs over Coltrane changes playing everywhere.

And also, in another way, the movie does give jazz some due respect by portraying it as a serious discipline which requires intense dedication.

As jazz supporters we should all be thankful(if a little miffed by the shallow portrayal) that this movie really did a lot to bring jazz out to a general worldwide public!

I think jazz "deserving" respect is a big reason why hardly anyone cares about it anymore. The kinds of soapboxing and self importing ranting you see in the jazz community scares normal people away.

**nick1994** · 03-04-2015, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by drbhrb

It's not a jazz documentary. Entirely not the point.

It's a fantastic movie with jazz as the back drop which will only serve to pique people's interest in jazz that never thought about it before.

I never thought it was going to be documentary. My point is that the film isn't about jazz.

**docbop** · 03-04-2015, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by drbhrb

I think jazz "deserving" respect is a big reason why hardly anyone cares about it anymore. The kinds of soapboxing and self importing ranting you see in the Jazz community scares normal people away.

Free thinking, creative, artistic types have scared normal people going back in time. Whenever you don't fit into the cookie cutter of the masses they fear people. There have been artist and free thinker community thoughout history and they eventually get destroyed by normal people. The only people who like the artists are the people making money off of them.

**christianm77** · 03-04-2015, 06:33 PM

I'd like to see this film. The trailers made me laugh, but I guess the film is not actually so funny, so.....

Good film = drama
Good jazz education = as little drama as we can hope for

this is all I have to say on the matter :-)

**Jonathan Levin** · 03-04-2015, 06:41 PM

SPOILER ALERT- Maybe don't read if you haven't seen the movie.

We just watched this the other night. I thought it was pretty good overall, my main beef would be that the character development was lacking. Aside from a short girlfriend thing with the student, and the death of the teacher's friend, there wasn't enough for me to really grab onto. Amadeus was a great example of character development IMHO.

I know there are a bunch of others too: Bird, Ray, La Bamba, Walk the Line, and Buena Vista Social Club to name a few.

Jonathan

**jzucker** · 03-04-2015, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by pushkar000

Well a lawyer watching Law and Order probably wouldn't go about singing praises of it.
He'd be the first one to point out, "Hey man that's not how we do it!". Even though he knows its just a TV show. The case with many jazz fans(me included) who are a little sore about whiplash is the same thing.

As I mentioned, bottom line - I thought it was a great movie.
It's a great movie that (understandably) doesn't portray jazz in the most faithful manner - or it doesn't portray enough of jazz to provide a clear picture.

Edit : I have not listened to the Dave Holland big band. I must check it out, thanks.

My son's an attorney and had no problem watching the bosch series. He pointed out some inaccuracies but certainly didn't whine about it...

**2bornot2bop** · 03-04-2015, 07:28 PM

Count 2b among those who've seen it, loved it, and went out and bought the DVD immediately after renting it.

I enjoyed the final 10 minutes of the film most of all...the look of the drummer's dad as he hear's his son playing in the zone was priceless...as was the look on the face of the former teacher who realized what he was hearing was golden.

I flat out dug the entire film. It was entertainment. And any exposure of jazz, or references to Charlie Parker, Buddy Rich, or whichever dead poet is mentioned in films nowadays is A-ok in my book.

What on earth is their to criticize....Film editing aside, which itself was nothing but brilliant, which is why film editing won the Oscar I 'spose, the actor who'd been a rock drummer in his teen days, did a very respectable job of pulling off that solo...he played it himself...over several edits.

I couldn't have played that solo! Could you?

**2bornot2bop** · 03-04-2015, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

My son's an attorney and had no problem watching the bosch series. He pointed out some inaccuracies but certainly didn't whine about it...

Seriously!? And here I didn't think you were a day over 35!

**jzucker** · 03-04-2015, 07:38 PM

i am also planning on buying it. I will watch this one several times just like I did Bird which was a more accurate depiction of the jazz scene but was a terrible movie.

**fumblefingers** · 03-04-2015, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

I think in fairness, Jack, the way the movie depicts "practice" is what is turning off a lot of people in the music world. I haven't actually seen it, but all the negative reviews I've read have said that the movie makes it seem like this kid just showed up for rehearsal each week, and there wasn't a lot of emphasis on what he had to do in between to get better.

Contrast it with something like Shine that was really all about the personal quest for perfection and the way that monomaniacal dedication can manifest itself. Even Black Swan spent a lot of time focusing on Natalie Portman's character's constant practicing and frustration.

I'll check out the movie soon, but just wanted to note that.

hmm, doesn't sound right.

it showed him working hard in a dark practice room on campus. that's where he was when he first met the band leader. and it showed him continuing there, practicing so hard that his hands literally bled. i think the point of dedicated practice was made, especially when the pressure mounted.

i hate to be captain obvious, but it's not an educational film either, it's for entertainment, and there are only two hours to work with.

**fumblefingers** · 03-04-2015, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by pushkar000

With all due respect to your knowledge and background, I would like to say the following:

1) In my opinion the directors did not choose those 3 elements because they are as you say important elements, but they chose them because they are 3 easily understood elements. Anybody can tell if its fast or slow. Sheet music is an obvious indicator of music. And shiny instruments add to the mystique and wow factor of the whole jazz thing. While it takes nothing away from their importance in the actual music itself, one can still understand that the reasons for highlighting these factors were to serve a different purpose - not to portray jazz faithfully but rather to increase the width of their audience catching net.

2) For many of us, jazz is a lot about smaller groups, improvisation, interplay between members. I love my big band music and have great respect for cats in big bands! But I also love and spend lots of time listening to smaller groups and lots of improvisation. A lot of the greatest additions to the legacy of jazz have been in the form of smaller groups, and this aspect was not shown at all in the movie, and it does feel to me like there's a large part of jazz missing or conveniently absent from the movie. The spontaneity that is the lifeblood of jazz has been left out.

Of course, its a movie, its not a documentary, what am I expecting? But a little sore feelings are natural I believe. As mentioned above, it would be similar to a lawyer watching Law and Order!
As far as movies go, even though I watch only about 2-3 a year so I'm not the greatest judge, I thought it was absolutely brilliant.

yeah, but this was a college jazz program, not the pro scene. the best college programs still have those big bands and this was supposed to be one of those top programs. furthermore, it showed the J.K.Simmons character playing piano in a trio in a small NYC club when he was on his own time. one scene was college, the other scene was pro.

**fumblefingers** · 03-04-2015, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

the look of the drummer's dad as he hear's his son playing in the zone was priceless...as was the look on the face of the former teacher who realized what he was hearing was golden.

ditto, that was the movie's climax, and the ending was done just right so as not to diminish it.

**2bornot2bop** · 03-04-2015, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

yeah, but this was a college jazz program, not the pro scene. the best college programs still have those big bands and this was supposed to be one of those top programs. furthermore, it showed the J.K.Simmons character playing piano in a trio in a small NYC club when he was on his own time. one scene was college, the other scene was pro.

It's reported that JK Simmons even played that piano scene...Had he even played piano before the film? Hmmm...

To the critics I'll close with this.

Whiplash was a small independent film with a very very modest budget...The film did very well at Sundance, which is why Sony then considered buying the rights to distribute it.

If that modest film encourages but one more person on this planet to explore jazz, much less inspire them to study an instrument, I'd say it's done its job.

And in the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I've got to say about that.

**sgcim** · 03-04-2015, 09:14 PM

Some people are getting pretty worked up over that movie (which I haven't seen yet).

Ethan Iverson said on his website 'Do The Math" (and I quote exactly):

"In light of the Whiplash phenomenon, I have no problem saying that if you think Buddy Rich is the greatest jazz drummer, you are racist."

**drbhrb** · 03-04-2015, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by sgcim

Some people are getting pretty worked up over that movie (which I haven't seen yet).

Ethan Iverson said on his website 'Do The Math" (and I quote exactly):

"In light of the Whiplash phenomenon, I have no problem saying that if you think Buddy Rich is the greatest jazz drummer, you are racist."

Well that's an idiotic thing to say even as little as I like Buddy Rich.

**dingusmingus** · 03-04-2015, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by drbhrb

Well that's an idiotic thing to say even as little as I like Buddy Rich.

Probably worth reading before you make that pronouncement.

The Drum Thing, or, A Brief History of Whiplash, or, "I'm Generalizing Here" - Do The Math

Ethan Iverson is many things (including the pianist for the Bad Plus), but I wouldn't call him an idiot.

**jzucker** · 03-04-2015, 10:29 PM

Buddy Rich was great. Fabulous drummer. Would I rather hear dejohnette, tony williams, elvin or jeff watts ? Of course, but Buddy was a pioneer.

And I just watched the movie again tonight. Those arrangements are great. I happened to play some gigs with hank levy including whiplash. Hank was a great writer. Anyone who thinks big band isn't jazz is an !@#$. Just sayin...

**fumblefingers** · 03-04-2015, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

It's reported that JK Simmons even played that piano scene...Had he even played piano before the film? Hmmm...

To the critics I'll close with this.

Whiplash was a small independent film with a very very modest budget...The film did very well at Sundance, which is why Sony then considered buying the rights to distribute it.

If that modest film encourages but one more person on this planet to explore jazz, much less inspire them to study an instrument, I'd say it's done its job.

And in the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I've got to say about that.

well i read recently that J.K. has a music degree. go figure, eh?

**pushkar000** · 03-05-2015, 07:58 AM

So let's see...

Gathering from the comments, my options seem to be :
1) Love this movie and ignore certain inconsistencies.
2) Be a myopic, humorless, neurotic moron whose self-important ranting and whining is scaring everybody away from jazz.

Nobody said its not a good movie. Nobody said it didn't do a good job of spreading jazz among the general public. Nobody said big band music sucked.

But among all the name calling, I have yet to see one person argue the fact that this movie did not portray jazz completely and clearly.

Yes, its a movie, Hollywood, only 2 hours, modest budget, general audience, its about teacher-student, jazz only the backdrop. Yes, yes, yes but bottom line - can anybody deny the above? Nobody's asking it to be what its not. Nobody's asking for a documentary. There's a few good ones around. But since you've made a jazz film, there's going to be a certain amount of weight placed on the "jazz" part of "jazz film".

My main beefs are
1) The romance aspect seemed to be "shoved in" and didn't need to be there, or could have been a little more developed. Sure the point was to emphasise the drummers focus and sacrifice but a bit more development would have made it mean a lot more.
2) There's little to no improvisation. This is the lifeblood of jazz in my neurotic and humorless opinion. General portrayal of jazz is on the shallow side.

(This doesn't mean that I am calling big band music shallow. Please don't take it that way. My point is that lots of other important things about jazz have been left out.)

So when people ask me about it, I say, "Yeah I recommend it, its a great movie."
And to another music fan, "Yeah I recommend it, its a great movie but it doesn't give a full picture of jazz"

Edit : after a bit of thinking, I think the love interest thing fits in best as it is.

**jzucker** · 03-05-2015, 08:30 AM

i don't agree that the love interest was shoved in and didn't belong. As someone who spent their teens and twenties practicing 6-8 hours a day (Yes, I got up at 4am to start my practicing even in high school) I completely identified with the protagonist and his attempts to balance a love / personal life with his practice and music commitment.

I didn't care that it didn't depict a jazz guitar trio because the big band arrangements and performances were stunning.

I also don't go to classical performances and complain about lack of improv.

**pamosmusic** · 03-05-2015, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I'd like to see this film. The trailers made me laugh

Yea ... I saw a trailer where director counted a tune in "5, 6, 7, 8" and I decided it wasn't for me

**pushkar000** · 03-05-2015, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

i don't agree that the love interest was shoved in and didn't belong. As someone who spent their teens and twenties practicing 6-8 hours a day (Yes, I got up at 4am to start my practicing even in high school) I completely identified with the protagonist and his attempts to balance a love / personal life with his practice and music commitment.

I didn't care that it didn't depict a jazz guitar trio because the big band arrangements and performances were stunning.

I also don't go to classical performances and complain about lack of improv.

Yeah I was thinking about it after I posted it and on second thought I think the love interest actually fits in best the way it is. Lots of respect for your work ethic!

Yes man nobody said that the big band arrangements were bad. I owe this movie big time for opening me up to Hank Levy and some other great big band stuff.

But its a jazz film, not a classical performance. I'm sorry but I sat down to watch the movie expecting something else, and while it was a great movie, what I thought was going to happen didn't happen. Fine, still a great movie. But I, like many others, went in with a certain preconceived notion. That's basically inevitable if they're going to bill it as a "jazz film". Too bad but they said "jazz", now we're thinking whatever it is that we associate with jazz.

**jzucker** · 03-05-2015, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Yea ... I saw a trailer where director counted a tune in "5, 6, 7, 8" and I decided it wasn't for me

no, he counted 5, 6 7 because it was a hank levy tune in 14/8. duh

**ecj** · 03-05-2015, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by pushkar000

Gathering from the comments, my options seem to be :
1) Love this movie and ignore certain inconsistencies.
2) Be a myopic, humorless, neurotic moron whose self-important ranting and whining is scaring everybody away from jazz.

Since I haven't seen the film, I don't have any skin in the game here, but this thread seems to be comprised of:

1) Some people who didn't like Whiplash for various reasons.
2) Some people who think it is important to aggressively explain to everyone that didn't like whiplash that they are morons.

Maybe re-evaluate your classifications?