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I heard about this in a Rich Severson clip posted hereabouts. Jotted down the title and author, then requested the book from the library. It arrived today. I haven't read it through yet though I have read about 30 pages and found a few things I want to remember.
"A paradox of life: The problem with patience and discipline is that developing each of them requires both of them." (Page 16, paperback edition)
I also like this, from page 22:
"To me, the words practice and learning are similar but not the same. The word practice implies the presence of awareness and will. The word learning does not. When we practice something, we are involved in the deliberate repetition of a process with the intention of reaching a specific goal. The words deliberate and intention are key here because they define the difference between actively practicing something and passively learning it.... Practice encompasses learning but not the other way around."
In reading this, it struck me that I realized that I tended to think of "practice" and "learning" as interchangeable. (That is, my practice log is a list of things I am trying to learn and I make a dot in a box for each item on each day of the week.) I'm going to have to re-think this...
Has anyone else read this book, or heard about it?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Practicing...racticing+mind
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09-16-2014 05:05 PM
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I read that book a couple of years ago. I enjoyed it. It some got some negative reviews on Amazon but I took the plunge and didn't regret the purchase. After reading the book I decided that the negative reviews were written by people who weren't ready to hear what Steiner had to say.
As for the "learn" and "practice" difference, my association with Howard Roberts at GIT forever separated those words for me.
Learning, to me, is the intellectual acquisition of data. For instance, a particularly tasty phrase over a m7 chord. To learn this, I examine the notes, decide where best to finger them, slooooowly play through the phrase until each note is firmly lodged in my brain. At this point, I begin to practice. Slowly, with a metronome, until I am ready to play along with a recorded track or loop at the desired tempo.
Again, to quote HR: Get the music off the paper and into your head as quickly as possible. Once you can play it slowly without looking at the paper, you're ready to begin practicing.
Learning is mental. Practice is physical. By which I'm not saying that one shuts off the mind while practicing but rather the brain/mind functions more as an observer while practicing and as a data collector when learning.
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I like that. I think you once sent me a video of Bucky Pizzarelli and Frank Vignola playing "Fly Me To The Moon" and then fielding a few questions from the audience about playing. One thing Bucky said was to learn tunes, to get a fake book, learn a tune a week, and at the end of the week, tear that page out of the book. He wanted you to have the music inside you. (<<<<I say this now from memory and would not swear to these details under oath.)
Originally Posted by monk
O, thank God for Google: Here it is. (The two guys play for a minute and talk for a minute.) Frank begins with something like "Every turnaround you need to know is in that tune!" This is a great resource for anyone who would say that job number one is to Learn Tunes.
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Now where have I heard the injunction to learn songs? Joe Pass, Frank, Bucky, and anyone who understands that musical intelligence is more than analysis or modes - it is a mental holograph that grasps phrases lyrically as music. Like singing. To learn to play jazz guitar you must learn to make the guitar your "voice" and play just as fluently as you sing. And as Frank says , essentially you learn to improvise by learning songs. The theory is like the bony skeleton of the song. Even learning harmonies on the guitar in the context of a song will advance your technique for the next song. And the one after....
Just for fun after playing along with the video a couple of times, I took the song for a spin solo for several minutes. Playing as chord melody, and sometimes emphasizing various ways of playing the tune. For example, playing the melody along with a walking bass, or playing the melody straight versus improvising more. That is an excellent way to "practice". Maybe the key difference between playing casually and with intention and focus is as simple as closing one's eyes. Seriously, as with your eyes closed, there is nothing between you and the music.
Jay
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These days one of my interests is the study of music and one thing that keep popping up is people saying learn tunes. One of my favourite example was a Kenny Werner interview, great Jazz pianist know for his drastic re-harmonization’s and his book and videos on Effortless Mastery. As outside a player Kenny is he say the key to his playing was as a kid he got into the casual circuit and had to learn all the old standards. On top of that many of the guys he worked with were the old musician when those tunes were big and he learned all the intro's and other changes they used. Learning all those melodies of tunes is the foundation for all his playing.
An old friend took a guitar lesson with Joe Pass what was the first thing Pass said.... play me a song. My buddy kind of panicked and played Stevie Wonder's Sunshine of My Life. Joe said he wasn't familiar with the song, and then sat and played it about five different ways showing my friend things he could do to a song. I think it was Pass who said in an interview once how he was amazed how young guitarist can solo through changes, but can't play the melody of a song. The melodies of songs is where the ideas for lines come from.
King Oliver whose band Louis Armstrong started in, his complaint about Louis was he didn't stick to the melody enough in his solos. Jazz soloing started as just embellishing the melody.
I'm going to have to check that book out that Mark posted sound like more food for thought.
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Turns out there is an Official Book Trailer for "The Practicing Mind."
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Yes, I have listened to the audio book of The Practicing Mind a couple of times in the last few weeks after I downloaded it from Audible. An excellent book about getting the right to practicei almost anything, although the authors examples mostly come from the piano (he's a pro piano tuner) and learning golf as a sport. It is completely applicable to guitar practice.
Very much worth listening to this book as its easier than trawling through a text book. After all, you can listen whilst driving, travelling, and sleeping (just joking).
I have also read Effortless Mastery and was put onto thatbbook by aquaintence who was head of theguitar dept. at one of the London Rock schools. An excellent book - but I would go for the Audio, Practicing Mind - somehow more practical.
If you are hitting a wall in your practice regime then this audio book is a great jolt to your motivation and understanding of what practice is all about and how to endure (well lets say, get through the hours needed) a high level practice routine.
Every serious practicing player should have a copy - is that a strong enough recommendation - and when you have had a go at that, try "So Good They Can't Ignore You" by Cal Newport. Even better!Last edited by ChrisDowning; 01-17-2015 at 02:59 PM.
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I'm glad this thread popped back up. I read the book last year but think a refresher, like a bowl of chicken soup, couldn't "hoit".
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Translation please for us Europeans? "Hoit"?
And whatis the Shape System on your posts?
Edit - OK after ten minutes I've got it. Doh!Last edited by ChrisDowning; 01-17-2015 at 04:06 PM.
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It's strange there are so few good books on just the process of effective practice and how to survive the hours that it takes to stay at the top of your game. I can't think of anyone I know, whatever their level, that hasn't had problems once they get their practice routine beyond a beginners hour a day. I read stories about players doing 10 hours + but I am not sure I believe them - I think those are stories journalists love to tell - but I have never met someone who would tell another player a tale of endless practice "until my fingers bled" as the myth is told. the Practicing Mind is the only book I have found in the last ten years thatvseems to address the problem head on and offers up many ideas to keep you playing and practicing efficiently and in a way that doesn't drive you nuts.
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Hoit is to Hurt, as New Joisey is to New Jersey Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
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You don't get to have your own definitions for words.
Last edited by Jonzo; 01-18-2015 at 06:35 PM.
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It's been a long time since "hoit" popped into my head. I ran across it in a book as a teen---idiomatic dialogue---and it took me awhile to figure out what the heck it meant. Then, as with you, it was "Doh!" (Though "doh!" wasn't around when I was a teen...) Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
The shape system is what Herb Ellis taught. Charlie Christian used it. Many other players have (and not just jazz players.) It's pretty simple yet surprisingly flexible.
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And you know, I've never been to New Jersey. Or New York, for that matter. But as I live in South Florida, I rub elbows with many more people from New Jersey and New York and Boston than from, say, Atlanta or Charlotte or even Orlando... Originally Posted by Chuck
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Chris, Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
I own and periodically re-read Effortless Mastery and The Practicing Mind. Thanks for the tip on the Newport book. I've ordered a copy.
Regards,
Jerome
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Monk, I have too. (By 'order' I here mean placed a copy on reserve at the local library, which has several copies in the system but none at the nearest branch. Should have it early next week.) Originally Posted by monk
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I think the great thing about reading or listening (there is an audio version on Audible) to "So Good They Can't Ignore You" is that it debunks the idea you have to get the breaks. It's all about outstanding competence. Getting so good at something people take notice. In some ways, making your own 'luck'.
The book is not specifically about being a musician, but I agree with virtually all the content and how it could help you build a career as a pro (or a very well paid semi-pro). One cornerstone of the book is about not saying, "This is what I do so now I deserve a career doing it." it looks at what will the World pay you for something the World wants to pay for. Which is the reverse to what a lot of musicians may say. This explains why some guys playing blues get stuck playing to bikers, blokes, and drunks in bars; and other palyers seem to be coining it doing weddings and big society parties - but playingnthe classics, dance tunes, and pop. If you only want to play what you like you may have to pay for the pride of doing that.
Secondly your competencies will often lead you into work and careers you didn't expect because other judge you differently to yourself and see abilities you either ignore or can't see. In other words your career is in some ways not uder your control, but like water, channels down into the requirements of others, and the judgement of others. That means relationships matter. (I've never met a consistantly successful player who wasn't good at relationships - and I've met and heard of others who were so bad, in the end nobody would go on tourwith them!) he talks in the book about, don't expect to end up where you planned - your plan is just your plan - the World will carry you somewhere else.
Thirdly, and this kicks into all the practice philosophy stuff, it takes time to get to be one of the best - more than you probably planned for - so this is a long haul path to top success. Competencey is the focus. Striving to be the best.
Those are a couple of the highlights that stood out for me. I've long thought that we short change ourselves as guitarists when we don't follow the same sort of practice and study regimes that classical players do - Grade exams from 0 to 8 (probably doing bass alongside those) then off to music college for three years and ten/twelve hours a day playing, and gigging in the evenings, and after all that, starting to get a pro career going.
Its a great book and will have you going 'Doh!' many times as you get to a light bulb moment when you gain new insights into why something you did worked or why you crashed at an audition or meeting up with a promoter.
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Originally Posted by monk
There are a few Kenny Werner videos on Youtube where he is demo'ing some of his concepts. He also has a JazzHeaven DVD showing how to apply it to practicing. Here's one you can find more listed on the YT page.
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Wow - an hour and a half to download, burn onto a DVD and watch on TV! Great!
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Interesting post. TBH I probably won't be getting the book, if only because that sounds like the realisation I've come around to. Be practical. A working guitar player will have certain skills and talents. Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
For myself, I've kind of ended up doing Gypsy jazz gigs. This is not what I expected.
I am not particularly passionate about Django style jazz (although I absolutely love his playing, of course) and would not count myself as interested in the contemporary Gypsy jazz scene beyond the obvious names. And yet I do these gigs. I think it's because there is a quality or attitude in my playing which suits this style. I've always liked to play straight fours, and project my sound, for example. I spent a year or two studying the basics, but now am back to other styles of playing. But it's clearly 'in there' - people see me not as a bop style player (which is kind of what I think of myself as) but a gypsy/swing style player. That's clearly what comes out. And yet, I have spent three years focussing almost entirely on bop language.
I don't think you choose 'your voice' - it comes out one way or another :-) Let others work out how to monetise it haha.
In general, practical skills are vital:
1) Timing, consistent tempo, placement of offbeats
2) Reading
3) Ears
4) Not being a total douche
The more I hone these four, the more work I seem to get. People seem to enjoy playing with me more :-)
Really interesting. You have to go with it.Last edited by christianm77; 01-26-2015 at 07:25 PM.
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Christianm77 - that is exactly what the book promotes as correct thinking. Creating something that has demand from those prepared to pay. The obverse to that approach is to be self obsessed and choose a style and a repetoire you personally enjoy, that has a small market and you then struggle to make a living. It is the basic difference between a hobby and a job - one is for fun and one is for money (fun is a bonus in a job). If Iwere to go back onnthe road, I know there is a demand for me to play and sing a James Bond film music set and a 1930's 'American Songbook' set. I think that is because that fits with what I look like at 68 and how I can play (doing some modern songs could come across as creepy from someone of my age and doing a 60's set is just so old hat). If I wanted to work and make a good living, doing those gigs together with a load of teaching, Those gigs and teaching would work out just fine. It's the real reality of being a working musician that you don't always get to play exactly what you are enthusiastic about.
It all comes down to basic marketing questions you need to ask yourself, i.e. "What business am I in?" "Who are my 'must-have customers' - the ones who if they knew what I did would buy without much persuasion. "Where am I wasting effort" - gigs which cost me time and money. What do I have to look after as a "Cash Cow". And where are the trends taking me so I know what to practice. The answers to these questions will often take you to places, gigs, and work that was unexpected. But that's basic music business Room 101.
"So Good They Can't Ignore You" will reset your thinking. It doesn't mean a life under the control of others; on the contrary it leads you to more control, more freedom, more satisfaction - but you need to read the book to understand how that happens. It is hard to give up the "follow your passion" mantra. But maybe following that 'Passion' approach needs an overhaul if anyone has been only just about staying afloat in their music career?Last edited by ChrisDowning; 01-27-2015 at 04:49 AM.
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