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Hey folks,
I can't help but wonder...
The electric guitar is such an emotional instrument. Why is it not more common for jazz guitarists to make use of the natural overdrive of their amps to give them a fuller tone?
The ability to bend and sustain notes puts us on par with horns.
Consider electric blues for example.
The key is overdrive. As opposed to just whizzing up and down the fretboard.
I hear lots of interesting sounding lines from jazz guitar players but very seldomly hear emotionally charged playing on par with horns.
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04-02-2013 07:57 AM
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Good topic, Dave.
Check out Kevin Eubank's sound on Dave Holland's Extensions album -- that's my favorite tone ever! Soft and sweet one minute, screaming the next.
[Tip: Do not just listen to "clips" from iTunes -- listen to the whole album!]
Marc
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Kurt Rosenwinkel often switches between clean & overdrive - he's probably considered the most influential guitarist of the last decade. You can see lots of youtube clips of him using it. Tim Miller does as well - lots of the modern guys do you'll find
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Kurt Rosenwinkel did come to mind however, I don't agree that it's commonplace for Jazz guitarists. I just haven't found what I'm looking for, the closest probably being Metheny on his synth guitar.
Originally Posted by 3625
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I think the key is openness to experimentation and the continued evolution of the art.
If we want the music to live on we need to stop living in the past of the "masters" from the classic age of jazz. Of course I respect the old "masters," but the thing is, that happened, and then the great jazz of the 70s happened, and then the great jazz of the 80s happened, and then the great jazz of the 90s happened, and then the great jazz of the 2000s happened. It's all part of the continued evolution.
Back on subject, definitely continued synth experimentation and trying different electric guitar sounds.
I personally just don't like the sound of overdrive in my tone, but I listen to a lot of players that use it. I guess it's just what my ear has been acclimated for myself.
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I use to use a lot more overdrive than I do now.
Guitar has really become a bigger emotional instrument (Robben Ford) than the typical jazz proto-type guys (Wes, Jim Hall, Martino).
But these days I don't hear it in my playing as much as I used to. I keep trying to add distortion, but keep lessening the amount until there's barely a grunge - barely audible. With acoustic piano, upright bass, and sax/trumpet players on the band stand, the overdrive doesn't often blend with the bop fair. But some times it really does.
I've been bringing my foot controller and getting overdrive, and ring modulator, and pitch shifting stuff.Last edited by Dirk; 12-18-2019 at 12:50 PM.
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I played in a big-band for several years; it wasn't my "thing," but I had fun, and we played a lot of gigs.
Every once in a while, such as "outdoor concerts in the park" type shows, I'd bring an overdrive pedal and lay into it during "bluesy" tunes, etc. Because of its "vibe" and the fact that it didn't sound like "swing" guitar, the audience and the band loved it.
I'm not good enough to elicit cheers like that, so I think it was "fun" for people to hear, and therefore effective.
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I used to often throw distortion on when playing Rhythm-A-Ning and stuff like that.
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I like a little distortion every now and then, but I find it no more expressive than a good clean tone, just different.
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Well true. I don't find it more expressive either. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
But I find the effect I can create with it more. It's more aggressive. It sustains more and I can more effectively use vibrato and bend strings.
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Jazz has a long history of clean guitar tones and as steeped in tradition as the music is, it's no wonder that clean tones are still predominant.
I think Rosenwinkel, Tim miller and Scofield all do a nice job of incorporating over driven lead tones into the jazz arena and of course there are many good fusion players who employ overdrive.
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Man I love Kurt Rosenwinkel but I don't like his overdrive tone. I don't think it does his playing justice. I don't mind that he uses overdrive, I just dislike the sound of it and I find myself disconnecting from his playing. Originally Posted by 3625
Kurt's clean tone is to die for but getting a great overdrive tone is almost another life's pursuit. You don't just add a pedal and stomp on it. It's your voice just as your clean tone is. It HAS to sound great and I don't think it does, in fact it removes emotion for me.
Now lately Robben Ford's sound is freaking unbelievable. I think he's using a Dumble amp. Derek Trucks sounds great to me. If you really want a great OD sound you have to push some air. Loud.
Imagine if Kurt was playing some clean stuff and then kicked in a Dumble! Awesome, and he would play differently.
Wayne Krantz has a great tone on some of his older live recordings. Out of control bop lines bouncing off the walls!
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I dig Rez Abbasi's dirty tones...anybody know what he's using?
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The problem with the Dumble type tones is jazz is played in quieter venues with horn players who sometimes don't have the best sound reinforcement or monitors.
So guitar players who strive to get that great OD tone and need to push plenty of air to get it, will drive them off stage. Not to speak of the venue and patrons themselves. Most jazz clubs are small dives.
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I said TONE.
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Here John Moulder kicks in a pedal at 4.00. Very smooth overdrive, whatever it is.
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That neck humbucker overdrive sound of Kurt's isn't my thing - except for his solo on Minor Blues on The Next Step, I dug that. Originally Posted by Philco
As far as a 'dumble in a box' - I have the Ethos Overdrive - excellent bit of kit. I only use it as a clean pre-amp (at the time I was going direct into the PA) but for all the breakup/overdrive stuff it's right up there - highly recommended.
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Ethos cost me $500 on Ebay secondhand - worth it if you can take advantage of its capabilities - much more than an overdrive, more a high spec twin channel solid state preamp for direct recording/pa. Sort of like the ultimate sansamp.
I find the AxeFx/Kemper scene really interesting, sometimes I go to the modelling forum on TGP just to see what's going down there. Complete overkill for what I need, but as a new technology I see the potential for some new sounds/ways of playing to emerge in the future.
I half expect one day to find Kurt's ditched his whole rig for an AxeFx - would be more convenient for him. That pedal rig he's got must be a real hassle to lug around and set up.
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The Axe Fx II has changed my whole outlook on life . . .
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I need to look at the AxeFx. That will be my next stop.
If you can have a selection of modeled amps and have complete control over the overdrive and compression it could be the path to some vintage jazz goodness as well as some Dumble overdrive modernity.
I'm used to programming those things so at least the learning curve shouldn't bite me to hard.
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Henry you are already all over this thing! Are there any settings you particularly like? Originally Posted by henryrobinett
The Axe Fx II has changed my whole outlook on life . . .
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There is one thing I really would like to know about the Ethos....if you can remember. Can the the amount of overdrive begin at absolute zero? Originally Posted by 3625
I want to start at zero and have very small increments of drive
Most pedals I've tried do 2 things that I dislike.
- Immediately change my clean sound, just by engaging the pedal.
- Have way too much drive at the lowest setting.
How is the Ethos in this regard?
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I just tried it out according to what you said - IMO it will do exactly what you want, plus a bunch of other stuff. Originally Posted by Philco
For what you want, use the Drive channel with one of the toggles on the 'jazz' setting which is lower gain - starts clean and ever so slightly merges into breakup (sound was still very clean with the gain on 5). plus there's a boost button to saturate it more, plus a totally independent clean channel. Too many features to describe - it's a real Swiss army knife.
Where this pedal really excels is it's ability to fine tune both gain and EQ.
Signal path is very high quality - it's really a pre-amp in pedal form, so tone suck from having it in your chain IMO would not be an issue. I'd love a delay pedal that didn't suck my tone but I'm real fussy about that stuff.
I'd be welcome for you to try mine out because they're fairly hard to find. If you found one for sale, or ordered one new and found you didn't like it, the resale is pretty good. Just saw a guy advertise one on a forum for $500 August last year. They're $400 new but with a waiting list, so the demand is there.Last edited by 3625; 04-03-2013 at 02:35 AM.
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Yeah. I've had one for a couple of years, or more. I started with the Ultra and moved on to the II almost two years ago. I got too comfortable with my jazz presets. I'm starting to work on getting some more sounds. It comes to me in stages. I got an elaborate foot controller with a few expression pedals. As I said I can get wacky with ring modulation and intelligent pitch, wah, distortion, amp or pedal type. Originally Posted by Philco
Ive been using the Deluxe Reverb, Boogie rhythm channel and a few killer overdrive amps. It's great. But there is a learning curve that might make you want to pull out your hair.
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Absolutely wonderful, especially his solo on Nemesis! Originally Posted by marcwhy
Other tunes and overdriven tones worthy of mention:
- John Abercrombie on Gateway from the same album
- Wolfgang Muthspiel on I hear a Rhapsody from Real Book Stories
- Adam Rogers with Chris Potter (Travellin' Mercies, Follow the Red Line)
- Metheny on Angel Eyes (with Gary Thomas, Till We Have Faces)
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