Does learning jazz make your head hurt

[zigzag]

monk, thanks again. When I can, I'll post a version of Round Midnight that I recorded over a year ago. I think that you might agree that I am probably a good ways past beginner stage. I think my issue is that I am not completely happy with my tone. No matter what I play, it turns out like elevator music. That's why I believe learning melodic minor and harmonic minor scales and modes, and adding them to my vocabulary, will add more meat to my sound- that and incorporating more dynamics.

Also, I actually enjoy practicing. Your point is well taken that I need to play music more. The times when I see the most improvement are when I'm playing music and forgetting what I've learned (or maybe applying what I've learned).

Thanks again, monk. I love this place.

[oldane]

At some point the artist must leave the design phase behind and just get the damn product out there. Use what you know and meet the deadline. Decide what you want to be paid (money, attention, fellowship, endless groovy bliss, etc) and sell to it.

"I don't need time. I need a deadline." (Duke Elllington).

BTW, I don't find that jazz as such giving me headaches. I have heard it for so many years and I have it in my head. Playing it is another matter. And sightreading syncopated 16th notes DOES give me big headaches.

[monk]

monk, thanks again. When I can, I'll post a version of Round Midnight that I recorded over a year ago. I think that you might agree that I am probably a good ways past beginner stage. I think my issue is that I am not completely happy with my tone. No matter what I play, it turns out like elevator music. That's why I believe learning melodic minor and harmonic minor scales and modes, and adding them to my vocabulary, will add more meat to my sound- that and incorporating more dynamics.

Also, I actually enjoy practicing. Your point is well taken that I need to play music more. The times when I see the most improvement are when I'm playing music and forgetting what I've learned (or maybe applying what I've learned).

Thanks again, monk. I love this place.

zigzig,
Please enlighten me here. I fail to comprehend how learning the melodic and harmonic minor scales will help your tone.

To the OP: Learning to play jazz doesn't cause headaches. See a doctor immediately.

[GodinFan]

I think my issue is that I am not completely happy with my tone. No matter what I play, it turns out like elevator music. That's why I believe learning melodic minor and harmonic minor scales and modes, and adding them to my vocabulary, will add more meat to my sound- that and incorporating more dynamics.

Tone does not equal note choice.

If you don't like your tone, twist a few knobs, try new strings or picks.

[whatswisdom]

To the OP: Learning to play jazz doesn't cause headaches. See a doctor immediately.

Dear JG FORUM: My body aches like heck every time I do 10 push ups. I need advice.

All jokes aside, if you love jazz and playing guitar, take it in small bites, as Mr.B says.

[zigzag]

OK, "tone" was the wrong choice of words, but you get the point.

[smokinguit]

To the OP: Learning to play jazz doesn't cause headaches. See a doctor immediately.

Thankfully it aint at that point yet. My head hurt 'cause my gray matter keeps thumping from all the work you gotta do to be an exceptional player as that is my goal; it all depends on what your goal is I guess, and how much of a workaholic you are at getting to that point. I push myself alot, especially when I've gotten over a plateau. I'm never satisfied with where I'm at in my playing. Don't get me wrong, I am happy with my development as a musician, especially the deep connection I feel towards jazz and the guitar, but I'm finding that jazz takes a lot of work, unlike other musical genres I've tried, to get it to where it flows out of you naturally, to where you can express yourself the way a gifted orator does. Just my experience so far in trying to understand/play jazz.

[JazzReggie]

zigzag,
I'm very happy for you that you have a teacher with whom you have connected in a deep way. As I stated in my earlier post, it was not my intent to cast any aspersions toward the man, his methods or his ethics. However, I do firmly believe that after eight years you should be playing jazz on a competent intermediate level.

I've had two students who came to me as beginners with just a few months playing experience who professed the desire to become skilled enough to pass the audition for their respective high school jazz bands. I am pleased to say that both of them won the guitar chairs in their bands and one of them was the first time a freshman ever made the guitar chair in the history of the school's jazz program. This was accomplished in 18 months.

Another of my former students graduated from Berklee and now works as a producer and two others have graduated from the jazz program that Jerry Coker founded at the University of Tennessee. In each case, we worked on playing first. Everything else came afterward.

Howard Roberts used to get all tore up about people who, as he put it, "took the hard road". He felt that people who slaved at theory and such were dooming themselves to years of being a beginner. He and all the other teachers I've mentioned at GIT believed that the quickest way to the "good stuff" was to learn songs and internalize solos and get out and play.

In regard to your comment on Kenny Burrell, why do you think it helps to explain it? And who do you want to explain it to? Seriously, people want to hear you play, not talk about it.

As Mr. Beaumont mentioned in one of his posts here, nobody ever asks WHEN did so and so study theory. Most of the time the answer is years after they started playing. John Coltrane had been a working musician for years before he began a serious study of theory. Lee Konitz played for 21 years before becoming a student of Lenny Tristano.

Zigzag, if you take anything from these exchanges, let it be that the most important thing is playing. Being able to play music. That's the brass ring.

Regards,
monk

monk, would you mind elaborating on your approach more? It seems to boil down to learn tunes, learn solos from records, and get out and play. Could you break that down a bit more? For learning tunes, what would you recommend next after having a good handle on the head and chords? For getting out and playing, would you recommend starting that if a player only knew the head, chords, and maybe a learned solo or two from a record? What should such a new player do when it's his turn to play a chorus or two?

While you were working with the two raw beginners you mentioned, did they do any improv while working on the tunes? Did you teach them any basic scales or arpeggios, or did they just stumble around hoping to hit things that sounded good?

Your approach sounds appealing to me, but it feels like I'm missing a few implied steps, or perhaps not understanding things correctly. Would appreciate any clarification you can give, thanks!

[smokinguit]

Another thing that might have hurt my head is that I'm finally finished transcribing Wes Montgomery's entire solo from Freddie Freeloader. It took me a month to complete the whole thing. I presented it to my guitar instructor and played it for him. He give me an excellent grade on it. It was a workout. Wes was no joke.

[monk]

monk, would you mind elaborating on your approach more? It seems to boil down to learn tunes, learn solos from records, and get out and play. Could you break that down a bit more? For learning tunes, what would you recommend next after having a good handle on the head and chords?

Although some will disagree with me, I'm an advocate of memorizing solos in the beginning. If you learn solos to Autumn Leaves and All The Things you Are from five different players you'll have the opporunity to compare the differences and similarities their approaches. You can also zero in on the things they do that you really like. Over time those solos will blur together and you can use the vocabulary to construct solos of "your own". Remember the stories of Wes Montgomery's early gigs where he would play the Charlie Christian solos he had memorized and then lay out. If it's good enough for Wes, it should be good enough for us mere mortals.


For getting out and playing, would you recommend starting that if a player only knew the head, chords, and maybe a learned solo or two from a record? What should such a new player do when it's his turn to play a chorus or two?

It's unlikely that you're going to to be the one to play the head. The leader of the session will generally do that although it's not uncommon for him to allow newcomers to call a tune. If you are offered the opportunity to call a tune be sure it's one you can play in your sleep. Play the head and one or two choruses then hand the ball off. Don't be a hog. Remember even Coltrane annoyed Miles with his endless soloing.

While you were working with the two raw beginners you mentioned, did they do any improv while working on the tunes? Did you teach them any basic scales or arpeggios, or did they just stumble around hoping to hit things that sounded good?

I never let a student stumble around. I'm a big believer in the George Vans Eps quote "Luck won't do it and ignorance can't." It's my job as a teacher to guide students to where they want to go. I will encourage them to experiment with the things they've learned and try ideas and explain to them why they do or don't work but I never let them stumble around blindly.

Your approach sounds appealing to me, but it feels like I'm missing a few implied steps, or perhaps not understanding things correctly. Would appreciate any clarification you can give, thanks!

JazzReggie,
To preface my explanations, I must state that both students, while novices to guitar, had previous musical experience. One had taken piano lessons and sang in school and church choir, the other played horn in junior high school marching and stage band. Both could read music notation. So my job was fairly easy.

I began with the Mickey Baker book Lesson One working on the chord fingerings and exercises. I also introduced them to the CAGED fingerings, one position a week along with an exercise for each position that I call the Parker Fragment. These were solely for building dexterity and ear training. The Parker Fragment is something I found years ago and is a diatonic expansion of a lick that Charlie Parker played in a solo. It consists of playing up each diatonic seventh arpeggio and back down the scale in eighth notes. Beginning on C, it goes 1 3 5 7 6 5 4 3. The last note connects to the root of the next arpeggio by scale step.

Once they started to get their fingers comfortable with the Baker chords, we started working on the blues progression. First, the standard three chord "quick change" form, then I would add half step approaches, then add the diminished chord in bar 6 followed by the long turnaround (I-VI7-II7-V7) in bars 7 through 10 and the short turnaround in bars 11 and 12. At this point, I would give them written out solos for the blues. I would also show them how to use the Parker Fragment on a blues. I also showed them points in the progressions to precede a dominant with a companion minor.

I kept CDs in my studio of various jazz artists both guitarists and other instrumentalists. I would play one or two cuts at some point in the lesson. My goal was to show them the history of jazz guitar from Lang to Reinhardt to Christian to Wes. How each guitarist built on what his predecessors had done and also to expose them to the horn players who were primary influences on the guitarists. Armstrong to Reinhardt, Young to Christian, Parker to Montgomery.

We would then begin the solo section of the Mickey Baker book and I would explain that these "runs" in the book were arpeggios of one type or another. I would have them memorize the Baker runs and use them over the blues progressions that they had learned earlier.

At this point we started to work on songs. Melody and chords. Autumn Leaves, I Got Rhythm, All Of Me, Out of Nowhere. Once they could swap melody and rhythm with me, we would take Baker runs and start to play them against the chord structure to make solos.

After we had spent time on these things, I would introduce some transcriptions. We would learn the head to Reinhardt's Minor Swing and then learn a couple of his choruses. The same with Christian's Rose Room solo. We also listened to and compared Reinhardt's and Christian's approach to Rose Room.

I also took them through Johnny Smith's triad arpeggios, major scales around the Cycle of Fourths in all positions. Once they had a handle on the four note Baker chords, I introduced the three note Freddie Green voicings and discussed rhythmic approaches such as four to the bar and the Charleston. I also had them listen repeatedly to recordings like Miles Davis' Kind of Blue, Lee Morgan's The Sidewinder and Horace Silver's Song for My Father to hear music without a guitar to distract them.

Once they were in the jazz band, we divided our time between learning new stuff and applying what they had learned in lessons to the music they had to play in the band.

Things weren't always as linear as I've written here but this is the gist of what we did. I hope this is helpful. If I need to clarify anything, let me know.

Regards,
monk

[zigzag]

That was an intense 18 months. Your students must have had to be able to practice long hours each day to feel comfortable with what you were teaching them and for it all to sink in. And they must have also been very quick learners.

[mr. beaumont]

Doesn't sound too outlandish to me...everything is practical, meant to get at playing songs...no hours of memorizig a bunch of scales....learn chords, the arpeggios are right there.

Very common sense start to jazz playing.

[smokinguit]

My jazz guitar teacher has a similar approach to Monk's approach with his students during those "intense" 18 months. The more you understand your instrument, such as how to build chords and arps, and play them all over the neck, you get to a point where you don't think about those things any more. You just play what's on your mind. That's where I'm trying to get at. He also said never try to play a song you are not able to handle technically at that point in your development. Learn the technical B.S., then apply it to the song.

[coolvinny]

18 months is a reasonable amount of time to make lots of progress. I mean, I doubt these guys are improvising like Charlie Parket yet...but to get to the point where they can "do it" in 18 months sounds reasonable with a good teacher to guide them. I feel I am somewhat close to that after about 8 months of quality practicing and after finally playing with other people (this is really important...because whatever your level of "improvisation" is in the woodshed, it will almost certainly be several notches lower when playing for real with others!). I have a ways to go, but I'm definitely getting there.

From my experience, the path to learning jazz guitar is full of so many freakin distractions and red herrings and nonsense that it takes a long time just to learn what to spend time on, and to be able to call BS on the BS. I literally spent about 6 months practicing nothing but scales and arps and chord inversions (and memorizing chord melody arrangements) and it got me absolutely nowhere in terms of playing jazz. NOWHERE. It would be my turn to solo and I'd have nothing to say...just nothing. Totally useless. It would be my turn to comp, and despite "knowing" all my inversions, I'd be useless...I'd get lost. The best thing I could do was just lay out, and I wasn't even very good at that.

I've made a lot more progress over the past 8 months than in all the years prior to that. I ditched the books, ditched the scales/arps, and started transcribing and learning vocabulary, as well as developing my own vocabulary...AND playing with other people. After working on an impossible Bird solo for a month but figuring out parts of it, I found that I was coming up with Bird-like licks all on my own. That never would have happened if I didn't study his playing. Currently I'm learning Jimmy Raney's comping from one of the Aebersold volumes (the green one with Jimmy on the cover) and again I'm doing it by ear using my trusty Amazing Slow Downer which cost all of $5 to download. Later on I'll learn his solos from the Aebersold, but I'll likely do it by ear and then compare to the transcriptions that are provided in the book. It's almost impossible to forget something you learn by ear...years can go by and you'll still have it, so for a long-term project like jazz guitar, I say it's worth it to do so (not to derail this into a by ear vs by paper discussion).

I think the moment of clarity came to me when I was talking to a top local pro and complaining about how despite about 90 minutes to 2 hours of daily practice, I wasn't getting better. He said that something's wrong if I'm not getting noticeably better on that much practice. I stepped back and figured out that I was wasting 90% of my practice time...he was right, something was wrong...my approach to practicing.

So Zigzag, you can tell yourself that those students of Monk's got better because they were faster learners or spent all their time practicing, or a million other excuses, but I think it really came down to this: they spent their practice time practicing the right things. If you do the same, maybe you'll knock them out of their guitar chairs one day!

This Mark Stefani article is great: http://www.visionmusic.com/articles/sevensteps.pdf

Best of luck...

[zigzag]

Thanks guys. I'm starting to re-think my entire approach now. I'm going to be moving about 2 hours away from where I am now, and I'll have to stop taking lessons with my current instructor. Maybe that would be a good time to spend more time learning the musicians I like most. Certainly, I have enough theory under my belt at this point to be able to work through a lot of this on my own.

[monk]

zigzag,
Both were in school and maintained an A-B average, so they had homework to contend with. Both participated in extracurricular activities, one was in school band, the other had karate lessons and school swim team. In the summer, both had part-time jobs.

There was an ebb and flow to the lessons depending on the other demands in their lives. Sometimes we moved quickly, other times more slowly.

What I tried to do was build on things one step at a time. For instance, the second lesson in Mickey Baker's book; the one with the chord grip exercises. The next week after that lesson we started using those grips playing the blues.

Soon after that we learned Out of Nowhere, applying the exercises to the tune. I would give them a basic chart for Nowhere and and show them ways that we could play the Baker Gmaj7 to G6 exercise over the first two measures.

Then we would take bars three and four and explore ways to employ Bbm7 to Bbm6 or Bbm7 to Eb7. when doing bars three and four, I explained that this type of harmonic movement is called a "ii7-V7". Everytime we encountered a movement like that I would repeat the technical information.

After a short while when we would learn a tune and I would star to say "This type of movement is called..." and they would finished the sentence "...Yeah, I know. It's a ii7-V7". By repeating the technical information everytime we learned a tune, they absorbed the theory as they learned the songs.

I did the same for Baker's runs, "O.K., on Out of Nowhere we can use any of the Gmaj7 or G6 runs but we have to connect them gracefully to the Bbm7 in measure three. Then by employing simple diatonic harmonization, I would say "If we harmonize the Gmaj7 to the 9th, the top four notes of the Gmaj9 are the same as a Bm7. So let's play a Bm7 over the first two bars of Gmaj7 and move down a half-step to Bbm7".

By explaining the applicable theory in the course of learning tunes, they got right into making music and absorbed the theory as a by-product.

I neglected to mention in the earlier post that 10 to 12 months in, I introduced them to Garrison Fewell's first book Jazz Improvisation for Guitar- A Melodic Approach. We used that as our soloing text from there on out.

Best,
monk

[zigzag]

Cool. I'll check out Fewell's book.

[coolvinny]

Cool. I'll check out Fewell's book.

NO! Don't do that! Monk suggested the book to his students after they were about 2/3rds of the way through his intensive 18 month program. You're going to go straight to the book? Before you have any (non-scale) sounds in your head?

[monk]

NO! Don't do that! Monk suggested the book to his students after they were about 2/3rds of the way through his intensive 18 month program. You're going to go straight to the book? Before you have any (non-scale) sounds in your head?

Jeez, vinny, You make me sound like some kind of slavedriver. No one ever complained that things were too hard. We built the building one brick at a time. I assure you that it was painless and no students were injured in the making of these musicians.

[zigzag]

Lol

[monk]

This Mark Stefani article is great: http://www.visionmusic.com/articles/sevensteps.pdf

Best of luck...

That is a good article. I remember reading it several years ago and he perfectly outlines how the the big boys learned to play. Stefani himself is a good player and I've met some folks who have benefitted from his courses.

[yaclaus]

Playing Giant Steps in a tempo I can´t deal with together with a player far exceeding my playing capabilities certainly makes my head hurt.

[Barret]

I,ll throw 2 bits in ....like it,ill help me to see myself...u see we,re all tryin to hard....we live in such a competitive society now ...its out of control......competition is everywhere....u just cant be a good guitarist ...u gotta be GREAT.....The MYth....Genius......Beethoven wouldnt make it here ...now .... Listen ....like no pain no gain.....people joggin everywhere.....Pain is in>>>>......thats the problem.......................Listen .....Dont compete ...Co-operate.........ENJOY who u are .....enjoy being U ......playin your music ...in the monment.......JUST Relax .....Teach yourself to be an ARTIST....u dont have to be Joe Pass...Lenny Breau....wes ...da da da da ...whats the price of your own happiness.....learn to enjoy your own guitar playing ....right now ...Dont just keep practiceing.....make SOME music MUSIC now.....and everyday .....not just endless practiceing.....smell the flowers once in a while....Dont teach yourself to suffer .............Is that 2 much said ...sorry ...Im tryin....Barret

[zigzag]

I'm with you Barret, but an artist is his own worst critic, and those who strive to improve are never happy where they are.

[Spirit59]

I,ll throw 2 bits in ....like it,ill help me to see myself...u see we,re all tryin to hard....we live in such a competitive society now ...its out of control......competition is everywhere....u just cant be a good guitarist ...u gotta be GREAT.....The MYth....Genius......Beethoven wouldnt make it here ...now .... Listen ....like no pain no gain.....people joggin everywhere.....Pain is in>>>>......thats the problem.......................Listen .....Dont compete ...Co-operate.........ENJOY who u are .....enjoy being U ......playin your music ...in the monment.......JUST Relax .....Teach yourself to be an ARTIST....u dont have to be Joe Pass...Lenny Breau....wes ...da da da da ...whats the price of your own happiness.....learn to enjoy your own guitar playing ....right now ...Dont just keep practiceing.....make SOME music MUSIC now.....and everyday .....not just endless practiceing.....smell the flowers once in a while....Dont teach yourself to suffer .............Is that 2 much said ...sorry ...Im tryin....Barret

As for me....

I put the work in, not so much in the pursuit of being as good as________, but more like I'm striving for more freedom.

90% of the time when I "practice", I'm playing tunes - making music - being as musical as possible - smelling some serious flowers.....