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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by DonEsteban View Post
    No offense, but you seem to be in the wrong forum. This forum is about music, especially about playing jazz music - typically with a guitar.

    You seem to be more interested in athletics. There should be more appropriate forums out there.

    To bad having perfect pitch can't pay your bills

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200 View Post
    So far I see that the OP plays bass in church and has had 5 years of jazz piano courses. I may be wrong but I didn't see anything about guitar. BTW, if you are going to play upright bass or a Jaco bass, you probably need a decent sense of relative pitch. There are no freakin' frets!
    March 24, 2019 - Last week was 35 this week it went up to 45 chord voicings. I haven't faced adversity in my PP experimentation yet. However, I am starting to run out of distinct chord voicings and have to face the dreaded semitone root notes, such as distinguishing between a G voicing and an Ab voicing. I don't know how I'll do, but it might be my first learning curb and if I succeed with it, hearing the note of a toilet flushing is not that far behind.

    I am getting some funny posts that I don't play guitar and that I am in the wrong forum. When I signed up in this forum years ago, I was studying jazz guitar with Roy Patterson at York University. Today, I am taking metal guitar lessons via Skype with Scott Marano. I am an avid guitar player. I not only collect chord voicings but I also try to learn a lot of guitar pieces as possible. When it comes to guitar, I believe in learning something new every single day i.e. new lick, new solo, new riff etc. I believe that the more repertoire I learn, the easier the next song will be to master. It just so happens this post is about Perfect Pitch.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by DonEsteban View Post
    No offense, but you seem to be in the wrong forum. This forum is about music, especially about playing jazz music - typically with a guitar.

    You seem to be more interested in athletics. There should be more appropriate forums out there.








    SCNR
    Speaking of "Athletics"...the baseball season is underway and I would like to throw in a baseball reference pertaining to Perfect Pitch...March 31, 2019- Last week I was only 45 voicings - this week I reached the milestone of 50 ending with 54. This includes completing the series of 12 Major Triads in Root Position. Practicing Perfect Pitch is a lot like playing baseball or any sport you throw in there...one day you are putting on a clinic, guessing everything accurately...then the next day you swing and miss a lot and have empty trips...the beautiful thing of Practicing Perfect Pitch is that it gives an imaginary sport to non-athletes like me.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    To bad having perfect pitch can't pay your bills
    Yes, you don't get money from doing this...but unlocking a new note, harmonic interval, or chord voicing is like catching a new Pokemon!!! Practicing Perfect Pitch is like playing Pokemon Go!!! XD

  5. #55
    Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch Update: April 8, 2019 - Last week I only knew 54 chord voicings, this week I it went to 63. The reason why it ballooned up so much within a one week time frame was that my jazz piano teacher taught me brand new set of voicings that I will wallow for a while. Not only that I have used the loops of my daw to create exercises of determining a key of a song and quiz myself on it. For my relative pitch, I also created brand new exercises using my daw. I was contemplating of how to make the music that I have transcribed to fortify it in my memory. The idea just lightbulbed in my head and I discovered that I can make mp3s of isolated sections where there is a phrase or a progression of real music and fortify it in my memory for good.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco View Post
    Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch Update: April 8, 2019 - Last week I only knew 54 chord voicings, this week I it went to 63. The reason why it ballooned up so much within a one week time frame was that my jazz piano teacher taught me brand new set of voicings that I will wallow for a while. Not only that I have used the loops of my daw to create exercises of determining a key of a song and quiz myself on it. For my relative pitch, I also created brand new exercises using my daw. I was contemplating of how to make the music that I have transcribed to fortify it in my memory. The idea just lightbulbed in my head and I discovered that I can make mp3s of isolated sections where there is a phrase or a progression of real music and fortify it in my memory for good.
    So have you given up on developing perfect pitch?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco View Post
    Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch Update: April 8, 2019 - Last week I only knew 54 chord voicings, this week I it went to 63. The reason why it ballooned up so much within a one week time frame was that my jazz piano teacher taught me brand new set of voicings that I will wallow for a while. Not only that I have used the loops of my daw to create exercises of determining a key of a song and quiz myself on it. For my relative pitch, I also created brand new exercises using my daw. I was contemplating of how to make the music that I have transcribed to fortify it in my memory. The idea just lightbulbed in my head and I discovered that I can make mp3s of isolated sections where there is a phrase or a progression of real music and fortify it in my memory for good.
    When you say you "learned" voicings are you identifying what they are by name and then singing back the notes that make them up? I may be the only one confused, but every time I have seen someone demonstrate perfect pitch they can identify and sing everything thrown at them. Is that what you are doing?

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    So have you given up on developing perfect pitch?
    Nope! Gonna develop Perfect Pitch for the rest of my life!

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200 View Post
    When you say you "learned" voicings are you identifying what they are by name and then singing back the notes that make them up? I may be the only one confused, but every time I have seen someone demonstrate perfect pitch they can identify and sing everything thrown at them. Is that what you are doing?
    Yes, I am identifying the voicings by absolute name...but I don't sing them back, because there are already solfege exercises that I am already doing and singing stuff by Perfect Pitch will mess me up. Speaking of singing the pitches...I discovered that I can identify a melody without transcribing but by singing the melody back using solfege. I had a lot of success stories using this method last week.

  10. #60
    Perfect Pitch Update April 14, 2014 - Last Week, I only learned 63 chord voicings by absolute name. This week I unlocked 70 chord voicings. But what I like to share is that I had an epiphany with Perfect Pitch this week. Remember I told you guys that I am already dealing with semitone chord movement such as a G chord going to an Ab chord. Yes it's more difficult to distinguish...but not impossible..as I discover that each root note of the chord has its own unique color, flavor, or characteristic that separates a G chord from an Ab chord and so on. Also I was watching some Perfect Pitch Youtube videos this week and I found a kid born with Perfect Pitch. I've seen all those Dylan Beato videos and they don't intimidate me as I know that I'll rival his level of Perfect Pitch someday. Now back to this video...At the very end, the kid is being snarky and condescending by testing people like us if we have Perfect Pitch or not, which is offensive to the intellect. Anyways, in the test, I got everything right except the A augmented, which is a chord that I haven't covered yet, as I am still doing Major and Minor Triads. But that is a proof that adults can develop Perfect Pitch if they practice it.


  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco View Post
    I've seen all those Dylan Beato videos and they don't intimidate me as I know that I'll rival his level of Perfect Pitch someday.....I got everything right except the A augmented, which is a chord that I haven't covered yet, as I am still doing Major and Minor Triads. But that is a proof that adults can develop Perfect Pitch if they practice it.

    You must be very young. Why is it so important to you that you need to (or even can) prove anything on an online forum ? You expressed your opinion and people disagreed with you. This is a scientific subject with many studies (some of these studies recruit participants online if you want to test yourself objectively) showing that you are most likely wrong. Arguably, you may be correct that you are an exceptional human (you can get tested by a professional audiologist or do the random online tests). However, ear training is overall useful for your music practice. I just hope that in the future you won't feel bad for the many hours you MIGHT be spending disproportionately on pitch recognition training instead of more fun (in my opinion) things like learning tunes, rhythms, interesting harmonies and improvising skills.

    Learning to let go is an important skill in life. Please think of this as humble advice from a much older forum member who is attempting to help your music improve.

    The good thing is unlike bodybuilders who take steroids to improve beyond their genetic make up, you can't really hurt yourself with excessive pitch recognition training (other than losing lots of time).

    -----------------------------------

    "The instrument keeps me humble. Sometimes I pick it up and it seems to say, "No, you can't play today." I keep at it anyway, though." Jim Hall

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by medblues View Post
    You must be very young. Why is it so important to you that you need to (or even can) prove anything on an online forum ? You expressed your opinion and people disagreed with you. This is a scientific subject with many studies (some of these studies recruit participants online if you want to test yourself objectively) showing that you are most likely wrong. Arguably, you may be correct that you are an exceptional human (you can get tested by a professional audiologist or do the random online tests). However, ear training is overall useful for your music practice. I just hope that in the future you won't feel bad for the many hours you MIGHT be spending disproportionately on pitch recognition training instead of more fun (in my opinion) things like learning tunes, rhythms, interesting harmonies and improvising skills.

    Learning to let go is an important skill in life. Please think of this as humble advice from a much older forum member who is attempting to help your music improve.

    The good thing is unlike bodybuilders who take steroids to improve beyond their genetic make up, you can't really hurt yourself with excessive pitch recognition training (other than losing lots of time).

    Thank you for the kind advice. But you have to understand of where I came from. I decided to take ear training more seriously, because when I was composing, improvising, playing and all that fun stuff I hit into a lot of brick wall and failures year after year after year. I investigated my musical problems and it's all connected to having bad ears. Since I have been training my ear a lot this year 2019, my recent compositions and jamming (sing what you play) have been much better than before. Now I feel confident of selling my recent original music online (Tunecore).

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco View Post
    Thank you for the kind advice. But you have to understand of where I came from. I decided to take ear training more seriously, because when I was composing, improvising, playing and all that fun stuff I hit into a lot of brick wall and failures year after year after year. I investigated my musical problems and it's all connected to having bad ears. Since I have been training my ear a lot this year 2019, my recent compositions and jamming (sing what you play) have been much better than before. Now I feel confident of selling my recent original music online (Tunecore).
    "having bad ears" can mean many things and like myself and others said, there is no harm in ear training and there is great benefit for many aspects of music performance. What you might be obsessing and may want to be cautious about is the overemphasis on the "absolute/perfect pitch recognition" component. No one will argue with you about the great benefits of relative pitch training (interval recognition), rhythm recognition and duplication, reproducing melodies by ear etc. none of which require absolute pitch.

    Best of luck !
    -----------------------------------

    "The instrument keeps me humble. Sometimes I pick it up and it seems to say, "No, you can't play today." I keep at it anyway, though." Jim Hall

  14. #64
    Continue with your studies only if you are seeing the results in your playing.

    I've committed 10+ years to relative pitch CONTEXTUAL ear training (not interval training) and the reason that I keep studying is because it continues to open new doors in my own musicality, particularly in my improvisation.

    I ear train everyday, 3-4 times a day, for 10-15 minutes each session. However, all that practice is done when I am away from my instrument.

    I practice hearing notes against a tonality, singing notes against a tonality, hearing dyads and triads and defining them by a reference note (C), sight singing, as well as other studies.

    That said, these studies are specifically done before I touch my guitar or when I am walking, driving, or flying on a plane.

    A HUGE part of ear training, that can't be over looked, is listening to as much music as possible. Immerse yourself in the language.

    And, I might add, ear training should never take the place of tune learning or technical aspects of the guitar. Rather, ear training should compliment all areas of your study of music.

    Like I said, I've spent more than 10 years studying the Banacos Contextual Ear Training Method. Ear training isn't a one and done process, but it's only useful if you actually use it in your playing.

    Once I get to Seattle, I'll continue my Ear Training Journal. Feel free to check it out if you'd like.

    All that said, your playing won't be worth dirt if you don't focus on rhythm, pulse, space, and dynamics. I practice my time with a metronome that only marks the measure, not the beat. That said, rhythm, pulse, space, and dynamics can only be really ingrained through listening to people play. That's true in all music, whether it be bluegrass, blues, funk, gospel, classical, jazz, or hip hop.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Continue with your studies only if you are seeing the results in your playing.


    All that said, your playing won't be worth dirt if you don't focus on rhythm, pulse, space, and dynamics. I practice my time with a metronome that only marks the measure, not the beat. That said, rhythm, pulse, space, and dynamics can only be really ingrained through listening to people play. That's true in all music, whether it be bluegrass, blues, funk, gospel, classical, jazz, or hip hop.
    And just to repeat, if you get all of the above right and play all the wrong notes and everyone will think you are just playing "outside"
    -----------------------------------

    "The instrument keeps me humble. Sometimes I pick it up and it seems to say, "No, you can't play today." I keep at it anyway, though." Jim Hall

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by medblues View Post
    "having bad ears" can mean many things and like myself and others said, there is no harm in ear training and there is great benefit for many aspects of music performance. What you might be obsessing and may want to be cautious about is the overemphasis on the "absolute/perfect pitch recognition" component. No one will argue with you about the great benefits of relative pitch training (interval recognition), rhythm recognition and duplication, reproducing melodies by ear etc. none of which require absolute pitch.

    Best of luck !
    I don't think I'm spending time with Perfect Pitch that long let's see:

    Perfect Pitch exercises created by me:

    Single Notes - 5 min
    Two Notes - 5 min
    Three four five six seven notes etc - coming soon
    Triads - 5 min
    Voicing Studies 1 - 10 min
    Voicing Studies 2 - 10 min (optional if I have an off day with the other categories)
    Voicings 1 - 15 min (There's like 34 chords in here) (My limit is 50)
    Voicings 2 - coming soon
    Guess the Key - 5 min (This is my personal favorite)

    Total - 50 min (sometimes it's less than that)

    I don't even spend an hour with Perfect Pitch. Once I have the new set of exercises, I will just do a rotation. The relative pitch is the one where I go crazy.

    Charlie Banacos - 15 min
    Melody Dictation - 30 min
    Transcribe Melody - 5 songs (15 min each)
    Transcribe Chords - 5 songs (15 min each)
    Review Transcribed Melodies Quiz - 5 min
    Review Transcribed Chords Quiz - 5 min
    Practice songs for the church - 1 hour (I do this every weekend)

    Total - Almost 5 hours

    Not to mention I practice guitar for another 3 hours. Leaving me only 15 min to compose, jam, and other minor activities, then I call it a day. So if I wake up at 5 am I'll be done around 11 at night.(FYI I don't have a part-time job and I'm done school lol)

  17. #67
    I can't commit to those types of hours, what with a kid and a job...

    But I did long hours at college.

    Anyway, as someone who's also obsessed with ear training I'd give one piece of advice:

    Practice in short intervals many times a day. 2 hours straight of ear training ain't gonna do any good.

    That's why I limit myself to ten minute intervals 3-4 times a day (or more).

    It sticks more. There's definitely a psychological explanation to it, but I don't have the time to search it up at this second.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Sioco View Post
    I don't think I'm spending time with Perfect Pitch that long...
    You're not, you're only spending a few seconds because after the first note it is all relative pitch.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  19. #69
    For transcription, perfect pitch could be helpful.

    But for composition, whether it is planned out or done in the moment (improvisation), relative pitch is way more helpful. The sounds created in music always behave within a sonic context. That context could be a chord, a progression, a rhythm, a pulse, or even an "atonal" pitch set (I'm starting to believe that atonal music is actually a myth).

    Like I said before, I understand your obsession with ear training. To be honest, I've gotten a lot of shite for my own posts about ear training over here at JGF. I think my post on Giant Steps made me quite infamous around these parts . Few people place a premium on developing the ear, and that's a darn shame. So I'm glad to hear of another person on the path to better his ears.

    That said, I think you should find a mentor to guide your studies. From the world of Charlie Banacos, there's Gary Dial and Bruce Arnold (that I know of). I've studied with Bruce Arnold and I still keep in touch with him to guide my studies.

    Maybe developing perfect pitch is a worthwhile endeavor for you. But don't try to reinvent the wheel and don't just find courses on the internet and wish for the best. Find someone who has already tread your path.

    “If you want me again look for me under your bootsoles.
    You will hardly know who I am or what I mean,
    But I shall be good help to you nevertheless
    And filter and fiber your blood.
    Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged,
    Missing me one place search another,
    I stop some where waiting for you”


    --W.W.
    Last edited by Irez87; 04-14-2019 at 10:21 PM.

  20. #70
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    Musical activities always begin and end with the ear.

  21. #71
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    I notice Bruce Arnold has products that claim to teach absolute pitch.

    Has anyone actually got direct experience of developing pitch in adulthood? Apparently it comes in handy for Webern....

  22. I've never ever been after perfect pitch myself.. except a few attempts to decide if its possible to get it good enough to rely on this. Which turned out to be "hell no".

    But after some years of relative pitch training, occasionally I have been nailing a note or chord on guitar by ear without any established reference. Picked it up, and felt confident that the note or chord is the right one against what was played. So the physical guitar playing has got closer to what the vocal cords are already doing by default.

    So I know for my own experience that the topic is not as black&white as they tend to paint it in.

    Furthermore - "don't do this, instead do that" in practice can be bad advice when the practice time is "relative" also. All it takes is to get enthused and the time magically becomes well spent anyways. Honestly, I've done some dumb routines but never ever regret any of that. And few of those even became useful much later. The point is - we got so many years with the guitar. That means a lot of hours for experimenting and side quests. That's true even when we got very limited time in each day.
    Last edited by emanresu; 04-15-2019 at 09:05 AM.

  23. #73
    Would you rather pay to see a musician who spent the last five years developing perfect pitch and solfege or one that used that time to work on their pulse, rhythm, command on harmony, improvisation devices, story telling, learning tunes, studying masters, playing with other musicians etc.
    There is always opportunity cost associated with how you spend your valuable practice time.

  24. There is valuable practice time that no one can argue against having to spend it wisely.
    And then some lucky people have more. For experimentation. It boggles me how people can go on literally bashing even the idea of trying it out. This makes no sense to me.

    edit: sorry for the wrong usage of the term "literally"

  25. #75
    The more details we perceive about the music we are playing, studying or casually listening to,
    the better prepared we are to make a musical contribution. The ability to hear isolated notes/chords
    doesn't preclude also understanding musical context. The ability to hear notes in a context doesn't
    preclude hearing individual notes/chords once the tonal area is confirmed.
    There are many musical details to listen for beyond the notes. These include rhythm, form, dynamics,
    tone color, phrasing/articulation, the silences, being aware of what is not there, etc.
    The ability to hear, regardless of category is exceptionally important.

    For me, I developed what I like to call "imperfect pitch". In my first experiences in ear training classes,
    I was often guessing, there was an element of luck each time I knew a correct answer. In years that followed,
    I played a dirth of gigs that required learning full song lists from cassette tapes. At first I was just another fool,
    plunking notes until I established a key center or an individual note or chord. Over time I noticed while listening
    to music, I could hear the chords at pitch (most of the time, I was/am capable of being wrong). In a way it was
    annoying, I would find myself mentally naming chords while listening casually, thankfully I learned to turn this
    on and off. I would also have blank spots particularly with altered chords and harmonies not part of my common
    vocabulary at the time. I would perceive it as an F dominant chord with something crunchy or an Bb major sound
    with an interesting color. Around this time, I started to do a lot of arpeggio and chord inversion and harmonized
    scales practice. I found this began to unmask for me an increased collection of harmonic sounds that were
    formerly vague. At this forum, I have heard people refer to something they called "pitch memory".
    This makes sense to me, I spend/have spent a lot of time around music. All this said, I have much room for
    growth in the perception part of my musical development, a lifetime pursuit I suspect.

  26. #76
    Let me just remind that the purpose of posting a thread in the forum is to get a variety of opinions and points of views around on the topic. Some will disagree and state their reasons, some will suggest different alternatives, some will find what OP suggests a game changing insight. Forum is not a group therapy session where the role of the members is expected to be confined to patting the OP in the back and send words of encouragement.

    Spending 5 hours a day on ear training and leaving very little time (or energy) for anything else rings false to me at a very fundamental level. Ear training should be grounded in practical situations. It should be done to address problems and short comings one experiences during performance or composition. Like technique, ear is not a goal in it's own right.
    Do you want to be able to compose without your instrument but find it very hard? Are you having problems hearing chord extensions the comping instrument plays when you're soloing? etc.
    When one works on ear to fix practical short comings, the process gets infinitely more productive. That's because, every activity becomes ear training. You start paying attention to that aspect when you are practising other things, learning tunes or listening to music. You are paying attention and being mindful.
    Let's say you want to get better at hearing chord extensions. Then when you are learning a tune, you aren't just learning the chords, you start paying attention to how the extensions sound. You start doing activities around it. When you don't hear you sing them, try to identify them when you're listening recording or play the primary triad and sing the extension then play it etc. Then may be do 15 mins more targeted work here and there. The important thing is your'e very aware and conscious and it pops it's head all the time when you don't have it because it is a practical short coming.

  27. Thinking about alchemy and the obsession for making gold.. Now it's actually possible to make gold.. of course it's a tad expensive but still - entirely possible. Thanks to the knowledge about how the matter is constructed at the microscopic level.

    Not too long ago the brain was just a lump of fat and no one knew anything about what's really going on there. Brain science is still in its infancy or just about to grow out of it. Who knows what will happen in a few decades from now. "not possible ever to learn perfect pitch as adult" - this could very well change entirely some day. Until it does, we're all just as good as the old school alchemists

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Let me just remind that the purpose of posting a thread in the forum is to get a variety of opinions and points of views around on the topic. Some will disagree and state their reasons, some will suggest different alternatives, some will find what OP suggests a game changing insight. Forum is not a group therapy session where the role of the members is expected to be confined to patting the OP in the back and send words of encouragement.
    Can you explain why is "don't do it, do something else instead" kind of advice good for anything?

  29. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu View Post
    Can you explain why is "don't do it, do something else instead" kind of advice good for anything?
    By "don't do it, do something else instead" do you mean someone suggesting an alternative that they believe is more productive then what OP proposes and outlining reasons for it?
    I don't know of a way to explain that this would actually be a legitimate contribution to an online forum without that coming off possibly condescending

  30. #80
    I reworded my post above a bit. I didn't mean it in a harsh way. But considering the controversial nature of the suggestion of adults ability to acquire perfect pitch, not having a single disagreeing voice in the thread would have been very disappointing. If that doesn't bring about a lively discussion then they might as well close the site
    Last edited by Tal_175; 04-15-2019 at 11:17 AM.

  31. I liked OP's max-attitude and therefore I gladly would rather give kudos for trying. I've seen this mentality prevail quite a few times with stranger things than perfect pitch. He didn't even mention what his specific musical goals are and people assumed instantly he is doing it wrong.

    edit: heh. right now after wasting so much time writing posts here while should have been practicing, I let my program play a random chord and I felt playing the root of it. Nailed that! Without any relative help. Haha

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu View Post
    edit: heh. right now after wasting so much time writing posts here while should have been practicing, I let my program play a random chord and I felt playing the root of it. Nailed that! Without any relative help. Haha
    I know, I try to limit my forum time to times I cannot practice. Sometimes it just slips.
    I do chordal ear training by exporting audio from Ireal pro. When I'm learning a new tune, I find it in Ireal pro, while trying not to look at the chords, I set the tempo to something slow and export it. Then loop it in transcibe or something, until I get all the chords. You also learn about comping/harmonic devices that are employed in the app. You have the exact chords to check your transcription against after. I first try to identify the chord quality and extensions used (if any) before finding the key. Of course it's better to transcribe chords directly from the records but that's after I get faster doing it this way.
    I do learn heads from the records always.

  33. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I notice Bruce Arnold has products that claim to teach absolute pitch.

    Has anyone actually got direct experience of developing pitch in adulthood? Apparently it comes in handy for Webern....
    I've never used the perfect pitch stuff from Bruce. And if you talk to Bruce about Webern, he'll say that it's not atonal music. Rather, it is music that rapidly moves through key centers. If you really have a handle on relative pitch, you can improvise in Webern's style. I can't... Bruce can

    That said (how many times have I said that here), I'm not going to discourage Jason's journey anymore because I know how my own excitement was received in these parts. I think this thread just brought back those frustrations for me. Everyone's journey in music is a little different. Embrace those differences because that's what makes music so interesting.

    Do whatever moves you. Perfect pitch, or else wise.

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