The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Just putting out a reminder to the novices reading this that you don't have to practice sight reading to play jazz well. Being able to read well enough to figure out the notes and chords on the written page is extremely helpful though...

    Players have to decide what is important to them, if it's playing a lot of material with others in a pro or semi pro environment, then practice reading - a lot. But if you're writing music, or just specialising in improvising against your own tunes, or common ones, then sight reading isn't a skill that will help you much. Life is short for Jazz players - so concentrate the time on where you get the best mileage for your own thang...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Just putting out a reminder to the novices reading this that you don't have to practice sight reading to play jazz well. Being able to read well enough to figure out the notes and chords on the written page is extremely helpful though...

    Players have to decide what is important to them, if it's playing a lot of material with others in a pro or semi pro environment, then practice reading - a lot. But if you're writing music, or just specialising in improvising against your own tunes, or common ones, then sight reading isn't a skill that will help you much. Life is short for Jazz players - so concentrate the time on where you get the best mileage for your own thang...
    Sounds a bit like saying that practicing reading is ONLY beneficial to later reading- performance situations. That's just not the entire context of what reading gives you.

    You don't ONLY read books to get better at the act of reading more books etc.

  4. #28

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    Yeah I think it’s easy to think of great players who didn’t read and then draw the false conclusion that being able to read would have in any way lessened their playing.

    Clearly reading is not as necessary as a good ear for playing music, but it opens up a lot of musical knowledge and literature otherwise inaccessible.

    You should certainly learn to read which is not the same as being able to sight read - your ability to sight read will depend on how much sight reading you do.

  5. #29

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    There is a huge difference between being able to read music and being able to sight read to a high level. For the purpose of analysis or self instruction, then rudimentary reading is fine. I hear about players taking lessons where they are made to focus on sight reading, probably because their teacher learned that way. If you gave yourself 10,000 hours to get good at Jazz improv, you could easily get away with 100 of those learning to read music to a basic level. And yes there are players who are good at both, but in my experience not many of them are guitar players!

    FWIW I spent many years practicing reading and got OK at it, but I realise now that I did far more than I needed to for my needs, both back then as well as now.

    IMVHO of course. Is this a contentious thing to say?

  6. #30

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  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by sightreadingsucks
    Am I retarded?

    Absolutely and categorically not. Which, I suspect, you already know.

    Some people can do it, others find it very hard. If you can do it, it can be improved. If you can't, not much will improve it whatever you do. And there are many other skills which come into that category, not just sight reading music.

    I think it's rather cruel for your teacher to insist that you torture yourself trying to do what obviously doesn't come easily. He/she should get somebody who can do it for their band, or whatever it is, and let you focus on what you're good at.

    And if this is for an examination that demands that you do it then that's precisely what's wrong with examinations. They just lump everyone together and create anxiety. It's stupid.

    I know tons of people who can use their fingers but can't use a pick. And people who can't play the piano because they can't use both hands together - but they can play a guitar.

    And people who can sing beautifully but can't hum while they play. And people... etc etc.

    You've tried and, for some reason, it's obviously very difficult for you. I say stop flogging yourself and do what you really can do and excel at that.

    (But the trouble with human nature is that you probably won't, you'll keep on thrashing yourself more and more and more till the end of time!)

  8. #32

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    Way back in the eighties I had a book called „Ten“. Ten guitarists were sharing their experience and each one gave a lesson on one aspect of playing.

    Tommy Tedesco did the sight reading lesson. He started out by saying that sight reading on the guitar is much harder than on most instruments, since you can play any note on several strings, and with any of four fingers - sixteen ways to play a note when for piano players and horn players there is only one! This comes from one of the top musicians in the industry.

    In his lesson, he covered several aspects, like changing time signatures, changing keys, accidentals etc. This was already professional stuff, and way easier than any Charlie Parker head. Don‘t do the tenth step before the first.

    Finally, if this is any consolation, even classical guitarists are usually bad at sight reading for the same reason: there are too may ways to play a given tune to get it right the first time.


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  9. #33
    There's a lot of hard science around learning to read. It's not rocket science. It's actually exponentially more difficult the older you get, but ANYONE can learn and improve at certain levels. If you're having trouble, you shouldn't be trying to do something MORE difficult than what younger students are doing, with their more malleable neural connections or whatever .

    Get a series of modern, graded band methods , probably Bb clarinet edition. Some of these will have three or four volumes or grades, which start very very basic and gradually get more advanced. Practice reading from those everyday some. Start at the beginning , and you should be able to easily read those at sight. If the beginning is too easy, flip back to a section which is a more appropriate level. You may have to go to volume 2 etc. (These band methods move at a much MUCH slower pace then typical Mel Bay type books, but those are good later as well.)

    The point of these products is not to teach you the hippest music or the music appropriate to whatever style you're interested in. The purpose of them is to teach you fundamentals of music and to read and improve at reading as QUICKLY and EFFICIENTLY as possible. These methods have taught literally MILLIONS of unmotivated, apathetic young students a great deal of musical content, as well as inspiring others who are more talented and motivated to move on to bigger and better things.

    "See Spot run" isn't compelling, even for kindergartners, but that's not the point of the "see Spot run" type of reading material. Its sole purpose is to teach READING. Once you learn to READ, you can read ANYTHING, but there are more efficient ways to learn to read than simply plodding through the real book, if you can't handle that material or can't handle it at sight.

    Stop hacking away, and sharpen the saw.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    There is a huge difference between being able to read music and being able to sight read to a high level. For the purpose of analysis or self instruction, then rudimentary reading is fine. I hear about players taking lessons where they are made to focus on sight reading, probably because their teacher learned that way. If you gave yourself 10,000 hours to get good at Jazz improv, you could easily get away with 100 of those learning to read music to a basic level. And yes there are players who are good at both, but in my experience not many of them are guitar players!

    FWIW I spent many years practicing reading and got OK at it, but I realise now that I did far more than I needed to for my needs, both back then as well as now.

    IMVHO of course. Is this a contentious thing to say?
    I dunno, I think it's complicated. I'm still kind of a shapes player to a large degree. I have to STOP and think for a split second to name a note. But that's because I learned to improvise jazz before I learned to read it.

    But, I think learning how musical words look when written down is pretty helpful - like you see the phrase written, hear it in your head, play it on the guitar.

    I also think there's an implied linearity of thinking in your comment. This is something some players seem a bit anxious about (including myself lol.) For instance, things I've been asked:

    1) If I learn another instrument will it deduct from my guitar playing?
    2) If I read more will it be bad for my ear training?
    3) If I learn ear training will it detract from my technique?
    4) If I study standards will I stop writing and performing my own material?
    5) And - recently - if I practice slurring upbeat to downbeat will I no longer be able to play rock guitar?

    The answer to these is of course, NO.

    1) Piano can help with guitar fretboard understanding, sax with phrasing etc
    2) Ear training and reading are interlinked - rhythmic reading requires audiation for example
    3) Audiating can help with technique - it's far easier to play something you can hear
    4) Studying standards will help you work on the art of composition or at the very least give some raw material
    5) Developing flexibility in your slurring can really develop your technique

    Music is a coupled system, not a series of isolated skills. Everything feeds into everything else. Reading can be a part of literally everything you do on the guitar.

    Also I am far from convinced by the Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours thing as it has ended up being presented in pop culture. I don't think it's a very helpful way of thinking about things. I think something that was far more balanced in the context of the book.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-13-2018 at 09:55 AM.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by docsteve
    Tommy Tedesco did the sight reading lesson. He started out by saying that sight reading on the guitar is much harder than on most instruments, since you can play any note on several strings, and with any of four fingers - sixteen ways to play a note when for piano players and horn players there is only one! This comes from one of the top musicians in the industry.
    Respect to Tommy T, but I think that's a little bit overstated. I mean we have frets! And in practice there are usually 2 or 3 practical possibilities for a note, it's not that bad.

    Yes it is easier to read on the piano.... It's possible to be a great sight reader - musical typist - and a really unmusical player lol.....

    But is reading on the guitar harder than sight singing? Harder than reading on the orchestral strings where you have to intonate each note? Harder than memorising a series of arbitrary fingerings and possibly adjusting your embouchere for each note like on a wind instrument?

    On a brass instrument, you really have to audiate the sound of the note to be able to play it - I spent a couple of weeks learning to play C major on the trombone - interesting experience!

    Problem is not the instrument - it's the culture and pedagogy. People start guitar later. It's always been an amateur's instrument, and use of Tab goes back into the late middle ages. And we don't connect ears and reading enough IMO.

    I do think guitar charts typically present a lot more diverse info - that can be hard to process, chords, then single note lines, stabs and so on. Horn parts look so CLEAN by comparison.

    When working on reading with students the #1 thing I have to is stop them from freaking out.

  12. #36

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    by that logic wouldn’t pianists have 10 ways to play each note? haha silly

  13. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    by that logic wouldn’t pianists have 10 ways to play each note? haha silly
    Not really. All instruments have octaves . Guitar has multiple unisons though. More than other strings even, because it's tuned in and 4ths rather than 5ths.

    I think obstacles to reading on guitar are legitimate. The other difficulties with other instruments , honestly , are more to do with technique : embouchure etc. But when it comes to pure reading, embouchure only HELPS the association to absolute pitch . Guitar does mutch the opposite. C major at the seventh fret basically feels kinesthetically identical to B flat major at the fifth fret.

    This has advantages of course, but it's mostly a disadvantage to reading absolute pitch. I feel like in a lot of ways we're talking about several different issues at once.

  14. #38

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    sorry matt, i agree. i meant the overstatement by bringing fingers literally into the equation. ie i meant 10 fingers not 10 octavesp

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Respect to Tommy T, but I think that's a little bit overstated. I mean we have frets! And in practice there are usually 2 or 3 practical possibilities for a note, it's not that bad.

    Yes it is easier to read on the piano.... It's possible to be a great sight reader - musical typist - and a really unmusical player lol.....

    But is reading on the guitar harder than sight singing? Harder than reading on the orchestral strings where you have to intonate each note? Harder than memorising a series of arbitrary fingerings and possibly adjusting your embouchere for each note like on a wind instrument?

    On a brass instrument, you really have to audiate the sound of the note to be able to play it - I spent a couple of weeks learning to play C major on the trombone - interesting experience!

    Problem is not the instrument - it's the culture and pedagogy. People start guitar later. It's always been an amateur's instrument, and use of Tab goes back into the late middle ages. And we don't connect ears and reading enough IMO.

    I do think guitar charts typically present a lot more diverse info - that can be hard to process, chords, then single note lines, stabs and so on. Horn parts look so CLEAN by comparison.

    When working on reading with students the #1 thing I have to is stop them from freaking out.
    I sight-sang a Bach Motette this morning. I finger the notes on an imaginary fretboard, or an imaginary saxophone, to help me along I need help sight reading on guitar I can sight-read trombone charts. So I guess I’m okay with single lines. I can sight-read a moderately difficult classical guitar piece. As to charts - I get the piano chart if I‘m lucky, or the iReal Pro changes. But I‘ve been playing classical guitar for 40 years now, don‘t take my word.


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  16. #40

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    Dear Sightreadingsucks,

    I'm doing fine, thank you. The problem is not me, it's you! At this point I kindly ask you not to practice me anymore, because there is no point. YOU SUCK!

    Sincerely not yours,

    Sightreading

  17. #41

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    It all depends on what you're trying to do.

    Here are some advantages to reading well.

    1. It can give you access to playing with better players -- in situations which require reading.

    2. It gives you access to written material to expand your knowledge.

    3. If you are reading single notes as if you're a horn with a horn section, it will improve your precision/time.

    4. If you can read, it makes it easier to write down your ideas.

    5. You can handle any situation requiring reading. For me, this has included lots of of gigs where the leader needs me to play tunes I didn't know.

    6. It may force you to play things you might not have played otherwise -- which can lead you to develop additional techniques.

    7. If you don't know the fingerboard and the names of the notes in the chords and scales you use, it's a great way to get started learning that material.

    Disadvantages:

    1. It's easier than developing your ear and it's seductive. It makes it too easy to avoid the hard work of ear training.

    2. It takes time and, apparently, not everybody enjoys it. (I always liked reading --still do).

    3. Too easy to be dependent on the chart -- so you may not learn tunes as efficiently.

    4. There are situations which require that you play without reading -- and that takes practice too.

    My recommendation: learn to read early, it's harder to do as an adult, apparently. But, don't neglect the side of musicianship that doesn't involve reading.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-13-2018 at 07:21 PM.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Music is a coupled system, not a series of isolated skills. Everything feeds into everything else. Reading can be a part of literally everything you do on the guitar.
    Naturally we've sorta strayed from the subject of the OP. Just wanted to say I agree most egregiously. This is one of the main reasons I'm brushing up. At this point in life it's not like I'm going to develop some skill that's gonna get me gigs and further my career or something.

    Like most musicians I'm obsessive. I recently overdid it trying to get some heads up to speed and had some finger pain. Needed to give my hands a break. Since I'm so slow at it, reading some simple violin music is a great way for me to do that while still being connected to my guitar journey.

    Another thing that comes to mind about reading in general: I know many improvisers of various musics & instruments who feel learning to read well might harm their musicality in some way. Like they somehow need to protect the 'magic'. This 'magic' must very fragile indeed if reading a little Bach is going to somehow ruin it. Maybe it's not as precious as they think it is. Reading the newspaper in the morning over coffee isn't going to mess up someone with the talents of a Stephen King when he gets to working on a book later in the day.

    Also... I like Bach, even at the super slow pace I play it. The guy knows how to turn a phrase.

  19. #43

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    My two all time favorites are Jim Hall and Wes.

    Jim Hall studied at the Cleveland Institute of Music, majoring in composition.

    Wes' wikipedia bio says "he was not skilled at reading music".

    If you choose to learn to read, or not, you're in good company.

  20. #44

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    Read chorales by Orlando gibbons or Bach, 30 mins a day before your practice, as a part of your warm up. Then move on to something like the Bach inventions, or Bach solos. The inventions have a lot of notes in them so it's good practice for note identification. It's good to learn to read in first position. But I generally read from 5th position as it gives you a bigger range.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Another thing that comes to mind about reading in general: I know many improvisers of various musics & instruments who feel learning to read well might harm their musicality in some way. Like they somehow need to protect the 'magic'. This 'magic' must very fragile indeed if reading a little Bach is going to somehow ruin it. Maybe it's not as precious as they think it is. Reading the newspaper in the morning over coffee isn't going to mess up someone with the talents of a Stephen King when he gets to working on a book later in the day.

    Also... I like Bach, even at the super slow pace I play it. The guy knows how to turn a phrase.
    Haha lol. So true.

    People who think this way probably overestimate the amount of 'Magic' they have lol. Good musicians are interested in learning stuff.

    It's worth pointing out just to clarify:

    Sight reading as opposed to reading is a professional skill that - for instance - if you play lots of standards jazz gigs you probably won't develop as highly as if you play theatre bands in London's West End (London is the sight reading capital of the world because no one can do rehearsals.) If you read each and every day with other players you will be a better sight reader then if the majority of your gigs are playing standards by memory. (OTOH the standards player's memory may be a lot more developed!)

    But reading itself - well you can learn to do that. Everyone should lol.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    London is the sight reading capital of the world because no one can do rehearsals.
    Interesting point. Around here, at least one rehearsal is mandatory, even on the low-key, semi-amateur level that I‘m on. Or maybe because I need help sight reading on guitar

    I can‘t remember an occasion in the last few years where there has not been at least one rehearsal, and if you couldn‘t make it you didn‘t play. That included amateurs as well as pros. Anyway, I‘m talking concerts here, not theater music, wedding gigs and stuff where the music is not the focus of attention. But I digress...



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  23. #47

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    I agree with others. Study at your level or you will become frustrated. Meaning, don't skip levels.

    If you were to take an Accounting class they would not allow you to start in Advanced Accounting. Maybe one person in a million might thrive. People lose sight of this concept when studying music, especially non-classical styles.

    To echo others, I have observed that William Leavitt's method books helped me tremendously. Make sure to include his Melodic Rhythm Studies and two (2) Sight Reading books too, which are also "leveled". Melodic Rhythm studies helps with syncopation and puts you in a better position to approach jazz.

    Try the Snidero series for guitar too. Easy Jazz Conception. Lennie Neihaus is good too, as mentioned above.

    Fakebooks too but don't worry about sight reading them to much if you're not very far along in the above material. Just read and memorize. Tackling Parker heads is a different ballgame altogether! That is, its very advanced.

    Don't forget, Beginner-Intermediate-Advanced (and multiple levels of each) applies to sight reading just like it applies to anything else - from Accounting to Kung Fu, to speaking Greek to playing the violin.

    Plan your studies, work hard, be patient, and enjoy the journey.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by docsteve
    Interesting point. Around here, at least one rehearsal is mandatory, even on the low-key, semi-amateur level that I‘m on. Or maybe because I need help sight reading on guitar

    I can‘t remember an occasion in the last few years where there has not been at least one rehearsal, and if you couldn‘t make it you didn‘t play. That included amateurs as well as pros. Anyway, I‘m talking concerts here, not theater music, wedding gigs and stuff where the music is not the focus of attention. But I digress...



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    Yeah, it's really not a good thing unless you want to record music on the cheap (Hollywood used to use the LSO all the time, London voices etc, now they tend to go to Eastern Europe. I suppose they are cheaper.)

    Rehearsals and playing together makes for better music. NYC jazz is the best in the world, and part of this is to do with rehearsals. But its a more compact city than London.

    I think both the layout of the city and also the culture of the musicians here - there's a macho thing about just going in and NAILING it first time. That can be cool.... But the bands that sound GREAT are the ones that play together a lot.

    Well maybe not macho .... more like .... there's a weird Brit thing of not wanting to seem like you are trying too hard. It's not cool to have a work ethic, but to look like you do it effortlessly.

  25. #49

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    While an interesting discussion I know I am benefiting from, I believe SightReadingSucks has left the building.

  26. #50

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    Yeah, screw that guy :-)